Discussion:
The Number Ones: Mark Dinning’s “Teen Angel”
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Bob Roman
2018-11-24 21:55:25 UTC
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A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit #1 in the Billboard Hot 100.

Mark Dinning – “Teen Angel”
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week

In the early weeks of 1960, romance-induced death was apparently the cool thing in pop music. Before Mark Dinning’s “Teen Angel” hit #1, the two songs that reached the top spot both told stories of death by love’s misadventure. In Marty Robbins’ “El Paso,” the narrator died by gunshot because he couldn’t bear to not see his love again: “My love is stronger than my fear of death.” And in Johnny Preston’s “Running Bear,” both main characters drown in the river that keeps their tribes apart. But as far as pure melodrama goes, neither hit can compete with “Teen Angel,” a song absolutely blatant in its pursuit of tears.

There aren’t a whole lot of words in “Teen Angel.” Songwriter Jeannie Dinning keeps things as spare and economical as possible while laying out a scenario that’s almost absurd in its tragedy: “That fateful night, the car was stalled upon the railroad track / I pulled you out, and we were safe, but you went running back.” And later: “What was it you were looking for that took your life that night? / They said they found my high school ring clutched in your fingers tight.” Bad idea, teen angel.

Jeannie Dinning, who’d been part of the ’40s singing trio the Dinning Sisters, wrote the song for her much-younger brother Mark. Jeannie reportedly played “Teen Angel” for Mark at a family dinner, and he recorded it the same night. But “Teen Angel” doesn’t sound rushed or crude. It’s slow and stately, with a spectral acoustic guitar and eerie harmonies that anticipate the Beach Boys.

When “Teen Angel” hit #1, Mark, at 27, was nowhere near his teenage years. And yet “Teen Angel” works mostly because Mark manages to approximate swooning teenage heartbreak. There’s a tremulous quaver in his voice, a hesitation. It’s like he has to take a minute before admitting that his life has changed forever: “I’ll never kiss [slight pause] your lips again [longer pause], they buried you todaaaaay.” It’s pure theater, and it does what pure theater is supposed to do. It gets you.

GRADE: 9/10
Mark Dintenfass
2018-11-24 22:15:30 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit #1
in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning ­ ³Teen Angel²
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
In the early weeks of 1960, romance-induced death was apparently the cool
thing in pop music. Before Mark Dinning¹s ³Teen Angel² hit #1, the two songs
that reached the top spot both told stories of death by love¹s misadventure.
In Marty Robbins¹ ³El Paso,² the narrator died by gunshot because he couldn¹t
bear to not see his love again: ³My love is stronger than my fear of death.²
And in Johnny Preston¹s ³Running Bear,² both main characters drown in the
river that keeps their tribes apart. But as far as pure melodrama goes,
neither hit can compete with ³Teen Angel,² a song absolutely blatant in its
pursuit of tears.
There aren¹t a whole lot of words in ³Teen Angel.² Songwriter Jeannie Dinning
keeps things as spare and economical as possible while laying out a scenario
that¹s almost absurd in its tragedy: ³That fateful night, the car was stalled
upon the railroad track / I pulled you out, and we were safe, but you went
running back.² And later: ³What was it you were looking for that took your
life that night? / They said they found my high school ring clutched in your
fingers tight.² Bad idea, teen angel.
Jeannie Dinning, who¹d been part of the ¹40s singing trio the Dinning
Sisters, wrote the song for her much-younger brother Mark. Jeannie reportedly
played ³Teen Angel² for Mark at a family dinner, and he recorded it the same
night. But ³Teen Angel² doesn¹t sound rushed or crude. It¹s slow and stately,
with a spectral acoustic guitar and eerie harmonies that anticipate the Beach
Boys.
When ³Teen Angel² hit #1, Mark, at 27, was nowhere near his teenage years.
And yet ³Teen Angel² works mostly because Mark manages to approximate
swooning teenage heartbreak. There¹s a tremulous quaver in his voice, a
hesitation. It¹s like he has to take a minute before admitting that his life
has changed forever: ³I¹ll never kiss [slight pause] your lips again [longer
pause], they buried you todaaaaay.² It¹s pure theater, and it does what pure
theater is supposed to do. It gets you.
GRADE: 9/10
I had the wrong #1 but I called it. The guy must think this is 50s emo.

Now we've reached the bottom of this abyss. Can we find a handhold to
help us find our way back up.
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--md
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SavoyBG
2018-11-24 23:04:48 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit #1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning – “Teen Angel”
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
In the early weeks of 1960, romance-induced death was apparently the cool thing in pop music. Before Mark Dinning’s “Teen Angel” hit #1, the two songs that reached the top spot both told stories of death by love’s misadventure. In Marty Robbins’ “El Paso,” the narrator died by gunshot because he couldn’t bear to not see his love again: “My love is stronger than my fear of death.” And in Johnny Preston’s “Running Bear,” both main characters drown in the river that keeps their tribes apart. But as far as pure melodrama goes, neither hit can compete with “Teen Angel,” a song absolutely blatant in its pursuit of tears.
There aren’t a whole lot of words in “Teen Angel.” Songwriter Jeannie Dinning keeps things as spare and economical as possible while laying out a scenario that’s almost absurd in its tragedy: “That fateful night, the car was stalled upon the railroad track / I pulled you out, and we were safe, but you went running back.” And later: “What was it you were looking for that took your life that night? / They said they found my high school ring clutched in your fingers tight.” Bad idea, teen angel.
Jeannie Dinning, who’d been part of the ’40s singing trio the Dinning Sisters, wrote the song for her much-younger brother Mark. Jeannie reportedly played “Teen Angel” for Mark at a family dinner, and he recorded it the same night. But “Teen Angel” doesn’t sound rushed or crude. It’s slow and stately, with a spectral acoustic guitar and eerie harmonies that anticipate the Beach Boys.
When “Teen Angel” hit #1, Mark, at 27, was nowhere near his teenage years. And yet “Teen Angel” works mostly because Mark manages to approximate swooning teenage heartbreak. There’s a tremulous quaver in his voice, a hesitation. It’s like he has to take a minute before admitting that his life has changed forever: “I’ll never kiss [slight pause] your lips again [longer pause], they buried you todaaaaay.” It’s pure theater, and it does what pure theater is supposed to do. It gets you.
GRADE: 9/10
Somebody slap this motherfucker already!
Dean F.
2018-11-25 05:44:13 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Mark Dinning – “Teen Angel”
GRADE: 9/10
OK, now I know this guy is full of shit!
DianeE
2018-11-26 21:50:23 UTC
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Post by Dean F.
Post by Bob Roman
Mark Dinning – “Teen Angel”
GRADE: 9/10
OK, now I know this guy is full of shit!
----------
He's clearly from another planet.
Roger Ford
2018-11-25 06:58:17 UTC
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:55:25 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit =
#1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTeen Angel=E2=80=9D
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
Here's how it did in the 1959 Singles Battle

R1 The Soul Stirrers - Stand By Me Father - Sar 101 17
Mark Dinning - Teen Angel - M-G-M 12845 8


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Roger Ford
2018-11-25 07:01:30 UTC
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:55:25 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit =
#1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTeen Angel=E2=80=9D
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
GRADE: 9/10
ROTFL!!

No chance of this grading and mine being anywhere near each other on
this one,Bob!

ROGER FORD
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Roger Ford
2018-11-25 08:46:26 UTC
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:55:25 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit =
#1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTeen Angel=E2=80=9D
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
The UK cover version is every bit as awful IMO



ROGER FORD
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SavoyBG
2018-11-25 15:05:14 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:55:25 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit =
#1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTeen Angel=E2=80=9D
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
The UK cover version is every bit as awful IMO
http://youtu.be/DLqmVXm3lPM
I would not have thought it was possible, but that's much worse than the Dinning. I gave the Dinning a 5, this one gets a 1.
Roger Ford
2018-11-25 16:25:09 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:55:25 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit =
#1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTeen Angel=E2=80=9D
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
The UK cover version is every bit as awful IMO
http://youtu.be/DLqmVXm3lPM
I would not have thought it was possible, but that's much worse than the Dinning. I gave the Dinning a 5, this one gets a 1.
Do you personally grade any records 0?



ROGER FORD
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SavoyBG
2018-11-25 17:02:01 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:55:25 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit =
#1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTeen Angel=E2=80=9D
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
The UK cover version is every bit as awful IMO
http://youtu.be/DLqmVXm3lPM
I would not have thought it was possible, but that's much worse than the Dinning. I gave the Dinning a 5, this one gets a 1.
Do you personally grade any records 0?
Yes, but that's very tough for any record to attain.

Here are some zeros:


September Song - Liberace
Say It With Your Heart - Bob Carroll
I'm Walking Behind You - Eddie Fisher
Many Times - Eddie Fisher
Anywhere I Wander - Julius LaRosa
I See The Moon - Mariners
Ain't That A Shame - Pat Boone
A Story Untold - Crew Cuts
Long Tall Sally - Pat
Fascination - Jane Morgan
Hold My Hand - Don Cornell
Padre - Toni Arden
Deck of Cards - Wink Martindale
The Americans - Byron McGregor (and the other versions too)
Tubular Bells - Mike Oldfield
Lonesome Loser - Little River Band
Pac Man Fever - Buckner & Garcia
Do The Donkey Kong - Buckner & Garcia
Chariots of Fire - Vangelis
Mark Dintenfass
2018-11-25 17:07:56 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:55:25 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit =
#1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTeen Angel=E2=80=9D
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
The UK cover version is every bit as awful IMO
http://youtu.be/DLqmVXm3lPM
I would not have thought it was possible, but that's much worse than the
Dinning. I gave the Dinning a 5, this one gets a 1.
Do you personally grade any records 0?
Yes, but that's very tough for any record to attain.
September Song - Liberace
Say It With Your Heart - Bob Carroll
I'm Walking Behind You - Eddie Fisher
Many Times - Eddie Fisher
Anywhere I Wander - Julius LaRosa
I See The Moon - Mariners
Ain't That A Shame - Pat Boone
A Story Untold - Crew Cuts
Long Tall Sally - Pat
Fascination - Jane Morgan
Hold My Hand - Don Cornell
Padre - Toni Arden
Deck of Cards - Wink Martindale
The Americans - Byron McGregor (and the other versions too)
Tubular Bells - Mike Oldfield
Lonesome Loser - Little River Band
Pac Man Fever - Buckner & Garcia
Do The Donkey Kong - Buckner & Garcia
Chariots of Fire - Vangelis
So, if I have this right, to get a zero a record must not only be
terrible, it must offend you personally in some way.
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SavoyBG
2018-11-25 17:12:38 UTC
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Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:55:25 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to
hit =
#1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTeen Angel=E2=80=9D
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
The UK cover version is every bit as awful IMO
http://youtu.be/DLqmVXm3lPM
I would not have thought it was possible, but that's much worse than the
Dinning. I gave the Dinning a 5, this one gets a 1.
Do you personally grade any records 0?
Yes, but that's very tough for any record to attain.
September Song - Liberace
Say It With Your Heart - Bob Carroll
I'm Walking Behind You - Eddie Fisher
Many Times - Eddie Fisher
Anywhere I Wander - Julius LaRosa
I See The Moon - Mariners
Ain't That A Shame - Pat Boone
A Story Untold - Crew Cuts
Long Tall Sally - Pat
Fascination - Jane Morgan
Hold My Hand - Don Cornell
Padre - Toni Arden
Deck of Cards - Wink Martindale
The Americans - Byron McGregor (and the other versions too)
Tubular Bells - Mike Oldfield
Lonesome Loser - Little River Band
Pac Man Fever - Buckner & Garcia
Do The Donkey Kong - Buckner & Garcia
Chariots of Fire - Vangelis
So, if I have this right, to get a zero a record must not only be
terrible, it must offend you personally in some way.
No, there's no hard and fast rule.
Bill B
2018-11-25 18:52:26 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
So, if I have this right, to get a zero a record must not only be
terrible, it must offend you personally in some way.
No, there's no hard and fast rule.
Seems it "helps" if you are white or have white members.
SavoyBG
2018-11-25 19:02:43 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
So, if I have this right, to get a zero a record must not only be
terrible, it must offend you personally in some way.
No, there's no hard and fast rule.
Seems it "helps" if you are white or have white members.
The Mariners are black. But yes, as far as our era most of the zeroes would be by white acts. Generally the black acts IMO are better at the kinds of music that both blacks and whites make, like doo wop, rock and roll, jazz, etc....There's not as many real shitty traditional pop acts who are black.

I'm sure there are probably other records that I don't know that would get a Zero, like in Opera, but that is also mainly a white genre in our era.

What about you, what records from our era would get a zero?
Bill B
2018-11-25 19:06:52 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
So, if I have this right, to get a zero a record must not only be
terrible, it must offend you personally in some way.
No, there's no hard and fast rule.
Seems it "helps" if you are white or have white members.
The Mariners are black.
The Mariners consisted of two whites and two blacks. I don't think I'd have any zeroes, even though there are records I hate.
SavoyBG
2018-11-25 19:15:27 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
So, if I have this right, to get a zero a record must not only be
terrible, it must offend you personally in some way.
No, there's no hard and fast rule.
Seems it "helps" if you are white or have white members.
The Mariners are black.
The Mariners consisted of two whites and two blacks. I don't think I'd have any zeroes, even though there are records I hate.
What do you give this?


Bill B
2018-11-25 19:16:31 UTC
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Not going there.
Dennis C
2018-11-25 19:30:31 UTC
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I'll go there!!

-3. It's below non music. It's silly ass anti music.

Gangster rap for the mlst part belongs in this same dust bin, baby!!
RWC
2018-11-26 06:03:16 UTC
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Post by Dennis C
I'll go there!!
-3. It's below non music. It's silly ass anti music.
No doubt Dada inspired, baby!
SavoyBG
2018-11-25 19:31:43 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Not going there.
What does that mean?

You can't rate it?

How about this?


t***@iwvisp.com
2018-11-25 19:56:05 UTC
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Yes, there are zeros. There are millions of zeros. Most never made the Hot 100. Some did but gratefully died before almost anyone’s ears were assalted on the radio. I contended, however, that there are no #1 zeros. In any given week with 100 records reaching that pinnacle through sales, listenership, payola, et al, any record reaching #1 has earned a numerical rating in virtually anyone’s book ... except of course, yours.

Ray
Bill B
2018-11-25 20:34:42 UTC
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Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Yes, there are zeros.
I tend to agree with Dick Clark (though to a different scale) on "American Bandstand":

"A segment of American Bandstand, in which two of the dancers in the audience were asked, by host Dick Clark, to rate a new 45 on a 35-to-98 scale. The reason for the choice of range was, according to Clark, because a song was never so bad that it deserved a really low score, and no song was so perfect that it deserved a 100."
SavoyBG
2018-11-25 20:42:04 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Yes, there are zeros.
"A segment of American Bandstand, in which two of the dancers in the audience were asked, by host Dick Clark, to rate a new 45 on a 35-to-98 scale. The reason for the choice of range was, according to Clark, because a song was never so bad that it deserved a really low score, and no song was so perfect that it deserved a 100."
The songs that Clark had the kids rated were screened beforehand to weed out the shit that was in the zero to 34 territory.
Mark Dintenfass
2018-11-25 21:39:44 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Yes, there are zeros.
"A segment of American Bandstand, in which two of the dancers in the audience
were asked, by host Dick Clark, to rate a new 45 on a 35-to-98 scale. The
reason for the choice of range was, according to Clark, because a song was
never so bad that it deserved a really low score,
Except when he had no financial interest . .
Post by Bill B
and no song was so perfect
that it deserved a 100."
Except when he had a lot of financial interest.

OTOH, he did have Chuck Berry on a lot. I wonder if he was getting a
slice somehow.
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SavoyBG
2018-11-25 20:45:01 UTC
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Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Yes, there are zeros. There are millions of zeros. Most never made the Hot 100. Some did but gratefully died before almost anyone’s ears were assalted on the radio. I contended, however, that there are no #1 zeros.
There are lots of number one songs that some people would give a zero to.
Roger Ford
2018-11-25 21:00:57 UTC
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Yes, there are zeros. There are millions of zeros. Most never made the Hot =
100. Some did but gratefully died before almost anyone=E2=80=99s ears were =
assalted on the radio. I contended, however, that there are no #1 zeros. In=
any given week with 100 records reaching that pinnacle through sales, list=
enership, payola, et al, any record reaching #1 has earned a numerical rati=
ng in virtually anyone=E2=80=99s book ... except of course, yours.
These are PERSONAL ratings so why would it matter what others thought
even if they were in a vast majority of the population.?

And there are more than a few #1 songs that would rate 0


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Roger Ford
2018-11-25 18:17:10 UTC
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On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 11:07:56 -0600, Mark Dintenfass
Post by Mark Dintenfass
So, if I have this right, to get a zero a record must not only be
terrible, it must offend you personally in some way.
10 AWESOME!!!

9 GREAT

8 EXCELLENT

7 VERY GOOD

6 GOOD

5 AVERAGE

4 BELOW AVERAGE

3 BAD

2 VERY BAD

1 AWFUL

0 GRADE Z BEYOND AWFUL THE ABSOLUTE WORST!!!!

That's how I table my grades

Here's how they work out on the #1 records from 1960 we are currently
talking about (or shortly will be)


"Georgia On My Mind" Ray Charles 10
"Stay" Maurice Williams & Zodiacs 9
"Save The Last Dance For Me" Drifters 8
"Cathy's Clown" Everly Brothers 8
"El Paso" Marty Robbins 8
"The Twist" Chubby Checker 7
"I'm Sorry" Brenda Lee 7
"Stuck On You" Elvis Presley 7
"I Want To Be Wanted" Brenda Lee 6
"Theme From A Summer Place" Percy Faith 6
"It's Now or Never" Elvis Presley 5
"Are You Lonesome Tonight?" Elvis Presley 5
"Alley Oop" Hollywood Argyles 5
"Everybody's Somebody's Fool" Connie Francis 5
"Running Bear" Johnny Preston 5
"My Heart Has A Mind of Its Own" Connie Francis 4
"Mr. Custer" Larry Verne 4
"Teen Angel" Mark Dinning 2
"Itsy Bitsy Teenie Weenie Yellow Polkadot Bikini" Brian Hyland 1

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SavoyBG
2018-11-25 19:09:07 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
6 GOOD
5 AVERAGE
4 BELOW AVERAGE
3 BAD
2 VERY BAD
1 AWFUL
0 GRADE Z BEYOND AWFUL THE ABSOLUTE WORST!!!!
Our scale is the same from 6 to 10, but I have a rating in between good and average. There's 5-pretty good and then 4-okay, average. This is especially important because there are tons more records in my library that are above average than the few that I bother to keep that are below average.

Basically I don't keep hardly anything in my library that's below a 5. I have lots of other MP3s that are not in the library, in case I need to hear some hit that sucks.

It seems to me that there's more than one notch between average and good.
Mark Dintenfass
2018-11-25 21:34:31 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 11:07:56 -0600, Mark Dintenfass
Post by Mark Dintenfass
So, if I have this right, to get a zero a record must not only be
terrible, it must offend you personally in some way.
10 AWESOME!!!
9 GREAT
8 EXCELLENT
7 VERY GOOD
6 GOOD
5 AVERAGE
4 BELOW AVERAGE
3 BAD
2 VERY BAD
1 AWFUL
0 GRADE Z BEYOND AWFUL THE ABSOLUTE WORST!!!!
That's how I table my grades
Here's how they work out on the #1 records from 1960 we are currently
talking about (or shortly will be)
"Georgia On My Mind" Ray Charles 10
"Stay" Maurice Williams & Zodiacs 9
"Save The Last Dance For Me" Drifters 8
"Cathy's Clown" Everly Brothers 8
"El Paso" Marty Robbins 8
"The Twist" Chubby Checker 7
"I'm Sorry" Brenda Lee 7
"Stuck On You" Elvis Presley 7
"I Want To Be Wanted" Brenda Lee 6
"Theme From A Summer Place" Percy Faith 6
"It's Now or Never" Elvis Presley 5
"Are You Lonesome Tonight?" Elvis Presley 5
"Alley Oop" Hollywood Argyles 5
"Everybody's Somebody's Fool" Connie Francis 5
"Running Bear" Johnny Preston 5
"My Heart Has A Mind of Its Own" Connie Francis 4
"Mr. Custer" Larry Verne 4
"Teen Angel" Mark Dinning 2
"Itsy Bitsy Teenie Weenie Yellow Polkadot Bikini" Brian Hyland 1
Well I like "El Paso" less than you do nowadays (having heard it too
often when it was big), and "Theme From A Summer Place," ridiculously
overplayed in New York by radio jocks who were, perhaps, secretly
pining for a return of pop, became unbearable to me back then, but I
agree with your rankings of the rest. Now that I know the back story to
"Save The Last Dance or Me," I find it beautifully poignant and proves,
if proof is needed, that sometimes a lyric, and maybe a little
knowledge of who wrote the song, adds a whole lot to the pleasure a
song can bring.
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SavoyBG
2018-11-25 21:49:47 UTC
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Now that I know the back story to "Save The Last Dance or Me," I find it beautifully poignant and proves, if proof is needed, that sometimes a lyric, and maybe a little knowledge of who wrote the song, adds a whole lot to the pleasure a song can bring.
It doesn't "prove" shit.

And if you're telling the truth than ANY version of the song must be better to you than before, since the back story has nothing to do with the Drifters recording.
Mark Dintenfass
2018-11-25 22:41:56 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Now that I know the back story to "Save The Last Dance or Me," I find it
beautifully poignant and proves, if proof is needed, that sometimes a
lyric, and maybe a little knowledge of who wrote the song, adds a whole lot
to the pleasure a song can bring.
It doesn't "prove" shit.
And if you're telling the truth than ANY version of the song must be better
to you than before, since the back story has nothing to do with the Drifters recording.
Back in the day, I liked the song plenty, but now, because I know about
Pomus, I like it even more. However, a recording that doesn't MUSICALLY
capture the inherent sadness and courage in Pomus' song (as the
Drifters I believe do) would seem worse once I knew the facts of
Pomus' life. Music and lyric and performance all have to work together
to make a recording extraordinary in that way. Imagine some cheery pop
group, for example, singing the song with no soulfulness or emotion or
understanding (like many cover records of r&b). The reason we both
despite them has something to do with their failure to "get" the song.
--
--md
_________
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SavoyBG
2018-11-25 22:50:12 UTC
Reply
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Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Now that I know the back story to "Save The Last Dance or Me," I find it
beautifully poignant and proves, if proof is needed, that sometimes a
lyric, and maybe a little knowledge of who wrote the song, adds a whole lot
to the pleasure a song can bring.
It doesn't "prove" shit.
And if you're telling the truth than ANY version of the song must be better
to you than before, since the back story has nothing to do with the Drifters recording.
Back in the day, I liked the song plenty, but now, because I know about
Pomus, I like it even more. However, a recording that doesn't MUSICALLY
capture the inherent sadness and courage in Pomus' song (as the
Drifters I believe do) would seem worse once I knew the facts of
Pomus' life. Music and lyric and performance all have to work together
to make a recording extraordinary in that way. Imagine some cheery pop
group, for example, singing the song with no soulfulness or emotion or
understanding (like many cover records of r&b). The reason we both
despite them has something to do with their failure to "get" the song.
If you mean "get" the songs as in what the lyrics are trying to say then I totally disagree with you. The black versions of things like "Sh-Boom" and "Long Tall Sally" and "At My Front Door" are not better because the black singers get the lyrics and the white singers don't. Lyrics have nothing to do with why rock and roll is great.
Mark Dintenfass
2018-11-26 01:05:16 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Now that I know the back story to "Save The Last Dance or Me," I find it
beautifully poignant and proves, if proof is needed, that sometimes a
lyric, and maybe a little knowledge of who wrote the song, adds a whole lot
to the pleasure a song can bring.
It doesn't "prove" shit.
And if you're telling the truth than ANY version of the song must be better
to you than before, since the back story has nothing to do with the
Drifters recording.
Back in the day, I liked the song plenty, but now, because I know about
Pomus, I like it even more. However, a recording that doesn't MUSICALLY
capture the inherent sadness and courage in Pomus' song (as the
Drifters I believe do) would seem worse once I knew the facts of
Pomus' life. Music and lyric and performance all have to work together
to make a recording extraordinary in that way. Imagine some cheery pop
group, for example, singing the song with no soulfulness or emotion or
understanding (like many cover records of r&b). The reason we both
despite them has something to do with their failure to "get" the song.
If you mean "get" the songs as in what the lyrics are trying to say then I
totally disagree with you. The black versions of things like "Sh-Boom" and
"Long Tall Sally" and "At My Front Door" are not better because the black
singers get the lyrics and the white singers don't. Lyrics have nothing to do with why rock and roll is great.
There is a happy medium between lyrics are everything (which you right
hold against rock critics) and lyrics are nothing. Both, I believe,
shortchange the possibilities of all the various pleasures one can feel
in listening to various records.
--
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SavoyBG
2018-11-26 01:42:47 UTC
Reply
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Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Now that I know the back story to "Save The Last Dance or Me," I find it
beautifully poignant and proves, if proof is needed, that sometimes a
lyric, and maybe a little knowledge of who wrote the song, adds a whole lot
to the pleasure a song can bring.
It doesn't "prove" shit.
And if you're telling the truth than ANY version of the song must be better
to you than before, since the back story has nothing to do with the
Drifters recording.
Back in the day, I liked the song plenty, but now, because I know about
Pomus, I like it even more. However, a recording that doesn't MUSICALLY
capture the inherent sadness and courage in Pomus' song (as the
Drifters I believe do) would seem worse once I knew the facts of
Pomus' life. Music and lyric and performance all have to work together
to make a recording extraordinary in that way. Imagine some cheery pop
group, for example, singing the song with no soulfulness or emotion or
understanding (like many cover records of r&b). The reason we both
despite them has something to do with their failure to "get" the song.
If you mean "get" the songs as in what the lyrics are trying to say then I
totally disagree with you. The black versions of things like "Sh-Boom" and
"Long Tall Sally" and "At My Front Door" are not better because the black
singers get the lyrics and the white singers don't. Lyrics have nothing to do with why rock and roll is great.
There is a happy medium between lyrics are everything (which you right
hold against rock critics) and lyrics are nothing. Both, I believe,
shortchange the possibilities of all the various pleasures one can feel
in listening to various records.
Do the (meaning of) the lyrics in "I've Got A Woman." have anything to do with why you like the record? How about "Sh-Boom?"

Of course the phonetics of the lyrics are important in "Sh-Boom," but what they mean has zero to do with why the record is great.
Bob Roman
2018-11-26 02:46:53 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Do the (meaning of) the lyrics in "I've Got A Woman." have anything to do
with why you like the record?
The lyrics of "I've Got A Woman" must have meaning, or Jo Stafford would not have bothered changing them.

The lyrics of "Battle of New Orleans" must have meaning, or Homer and Jethro would not have bothered changing them.

The lyrics of "The Wild Side of Life" must have meaning, or Kitty Wells would not have bothered changing them.

--
BR
SavoyBG
2018-11-26 03:06:32 UTC
Reply
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Do the (meaning of) the lyrics in "I've Got A Woman." have anything to do
with why you like the record?
The lyrics of "I've Got A Woman" must have meaning, or Jo Stafford would not have bothered changing them.
The lyrics of "Battle of New Orleans" must have meaning, or Homer and Jethro would not have bothered changing them.
The lyrics of "The Wild Side of Life" must have meaning, or Kitty Wells would not have bothered changing them.
All lyrics "have" meaning.

But does that meaning have anything to do with why you like the record?"
SavoyBG
2018-11-26 03:21:43 UTC
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Fort you lyrics guys, which lune is better?

She gives me money, when I'm in need

OR

She knows a woman's place is right there now in her home
SavoyBG
2018-11-26 03:24:34 UTC
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What's the better line in "Sh-Boom."

"Sh-boom if I could take up in paradise up above."

OR

If you would let me spend my whole life loving you."
Bob Roman
2018-11-26 03:59:26 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
All lyrics "have" meaning.
But does that meaning have anything to do with why you like the record?"
Yes, sometimes.
For example, I would have liked Elvis's recording of "Fever" more if he kept the original LWJ lyrics and hadn't adopted the Peggy Lee changes.
And I prefer the "sin" version of "One Night."

--
BR
Mark Dintenfass
2018-11-26 04:44:36 UTC
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I was asking specifically about "I've Got A Woman" and "Sh-Boom."
Ridiculous. You can choose examples to prove ANY point as long as you
always choose the right examples. It's like my arguing that lyrics are
ALWAYS important choosing "Promised Land" and "Imagine" to "prove" it.
--
--md
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SavoyBG
2018-11-26 04:48:57 UTC
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Post by Mark Dintenfass
I was asking specifically about "I've Got A Woman" and "Sh-Boom."
Ridiculous. You can choose examples to prove ANY point as long as you
always choose the right examples. It's like my arguing that lyrics are
ALWAYS important choosing "Promised Land" and "Imagine" to "prove" it.
So you admit that in most 50s records that you like that the what the lyrics mean has next to nothing to do with why you like them. That's a start.
SavoyBG
2018-11-26 04:53:54 UTC
Reply
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
I was asking specifically about "I've Got A Woman" and "Sh-Boom."
Ridiculous. You can choose examples to prove ANY point as long as you
always choose the right examples. It's like my arguing that lyrics are
ALWAYS important choosing "Promised Land" and "Imagine" to "prove" it.
So you admit that in most 50s records that you like that the what the lyrics mean has next to nothing to do with why you like them. That's a start.
Mark, one of your favorite records of the decade is "What'd I Say."

Which line is better in your opinion?

See the girl with the diamond ring, she knows how to shake that thing

OR

See the girl with the red dress on, she can do the birdland all night long
Mark Dintenfass
2018-11-26 12:27:54 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
I was asking specifically about "I've Got A Woman" and "Sh-Boom."
Ridiculous. You can choose examples to prove ANY point as long as you
always choose the right examples. It's like my arguing that lyrics are
ALWAYS important choosing "Promised Land" and "Imagine" to "prove" it.
So you admit that in most 50s records that you like that the what the lyrics
mean has next to nothing to do with why you like them. That's a start.
LOL
--
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Remove xx's from address to reply
Bob Roman
2018-11-26 12:57:31 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
All lyrics "have" meaning.
But does that meaning have anything to do with why you like the record?"
Yes, sometimes.
For example, I would have liked Elvis's recording of "Fever" more if he
kept the original LWJ lyrics and hadn't adopted the Peggy Lee changes.
And I prefer the "sin" version of "One Night."
I was asking specifically about "I've Got A Woman" and "Sh-Boom."
That's a pretty narrow conversation.

--
BR
SavoyBG
2018-11-26 14:54:05 UTC
Reply
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
All lyrics "have" meaning.
But does that meaning have anything to do with why you like the record?"
Yes, sometimes.
For example, I would have liked Elvis's recording of "Fever" more if he
kept the original LWJ lyrics and hadn't adopted the Peggy Lee changes.
And I prefer the "sin" version of "One Night."
I was asking specifically about "I've Got A Woman" and "Sh-Boom."
That's a pretty narrow conversation.
Yes, should be easy enough to answer but you can't seem to do it.

Tell us, your favorite artist, Ray Charles. Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
Bob Roman
2018-11-27 00:04:43 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bob Roman
I was asking specifically about "I've Got A Woman" and "Sh-Boom."
That's a pretty narrow conversation.
Yes, should be easy enough to answer but you can't seem to do it.
Tell us, your favorite artist, Ray Charles. Which lyrics do you think are
better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
Neither of those is "I've Got A Woman" or "Sh-Boom."

--
BR
SavoyBG
2018-11-27 00:07:26 UTC
Reply
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bob Roman
I was asking specifically about "I've Got A Woman" and "Sh-Boom."
That's a pretty narrow conversation.
Yes, should be easy enough to answer but you can't seem to do it.
Tell us, your favorite artist, Ray Charles. Which lyrics do you think are
better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
Neither of those is "I've Got A Woman" or "Sh-Boom."
--
BR
Can you answer a simple question?

Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
Bob Roman
2018-11-27 00:24:30 UTC
Reply
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bob Roman
I was asking specifically about "I've Got A Woman" and "Sh-Boom."
That's a pretty narrow conversation.
Yes, should be easy enough to answer but you can't seem to do it.
Tell us, your favorite artist, Ray Charles. Which lyrics do you think are
better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
Neither of those is "I've Got A Woman" or "Sh-Boom."
Can you answer a simple question?
Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
So we're done with "I've Got A Woman" and "Sh-Boom"?

Great. Now we can get to the "Mess Around"/"What'd I Say" query right after you address my point about the two versions to the lyrics of "Fever."

--
BR
SavoyBG
2018-11-27 00:30:31 UTC
Reply
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bob Roman
I was asking specifically about "I've Got A Woman" and "Sh-Boom."
That's a pretty narrow conversation.
Yes, should be easy enough to answer but you can't seem to do it.
Tell us, your favorite artist, Ray Charles. Which lyrics do you think are
better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
Neither of those is "I've Got A Woman" or "Sh-Boom."
Can you answer a simple question?
Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
So we're done with "I've Got A Woman" and "Sh-Boom"?
Great. Now we can get to the "Mess Around"/"What'd I Say" query right after you address my point about the two versions to the lyrics of "Fever."
The lyrics in "Fever" don't matter to me either way. It was weird to here the extra verse in Lee's version (Captain Smith and Pochohontas) the first time I heard it after hearing John's versions many times, but otherwise it doesn't matter to me. Same with "Shake, Rattle and Roll." Both Turner and Haley versions are in my top 100 of all time with Turner at # 1, but the change in lyrics doesn't matter to me. Even when Turner sings some of Haley's lyrics in live versions it's immaterial to my enjoyment of the recording.

Now.

Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
SavoyBG
2018-11-27 00:34:24 UTC
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When Elvis changed the lyrics of "Good Rockin' Tonight" and "Baby Let's Play House" from the Roy Brown-Wynonie Harris, and Arthur Gunter lyrics they also were immaterial to my enjoyment of the records.
SavoyBG
2018-11-27 01:51:18 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say
I gather neither Bob or Mark will answer here, but it does not matter. It's a win-win for me. The point is well made just by my asking whether they answer or not. It would be funny to see one or both of them try and explain why some of the lyrics in one of these songs are good, but either way, I win.
Bob Roman
2018-11-27 01:55:26 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Now.
Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
"What'd I Say" is obviously better. Especially when the girls start moaning.

--
BR
SavoyBG
2018-11-27 02:03:05 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Now.
Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
"What'd I Say" is obviously better. Especially when the girls start moaning.
The moaning parts are lyrics?
Bob Roman
2018-11-27 02:30:55 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Now.
Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
"What'd I Say" is obviously better. Especially when the girls start moaning.
The moaning parts are lyrics?
In that context, yeah.

--
BR
SavoyBG
2018-11-27 02:39:11 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Now.
Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
"What'd I Say" is obviously better. Especially when the girls start moaning.
The moaning parts are lyrics?
In that context, yeah.
I don't see them here in the official lyrics:

[Verse 1]
Hey mama, don't you treat me wrong
Come and love your daddy all night long
All right now, hey hey, all right
See the girl with the diamond ring
She knows how to shake that thing
All right now now now, hey hey, hey hey
Tell your mama, tell your pa
I'm gonna send you back to Arkansas
Oh yes, ma'am, you don't do right, don't do right
Aw, play it, boy
When you see me in misery
Come on baby, see about me
Now yeah, hey hey, all right, all right, aw play it, boy
When you see me in misery
Come on baby, see about me
Now yeah, hey hey, all right
See the girl with the red dress on
She can do the Birdland all night long

[Chorus 1]
Yeah yeah, what'd I say, all right
Well, tell me what'd I say, yeah
Tell me what'd I say right now
Tell me what'd I say right now
Tell me what'd I say right now
Tell me what'd I say right now
Tell me what'd I say right now

[Chorus 2]
And I want to know
Baby, I want to know right now
And I want to know
Baby, I want to know right now
And I want to know
Baby, I want to know right now

[Breakdown/Verse 2]
Hey, don't quit now! (Come on honey)
Naw, I got, I uh-uh-uh, I'm changing (stop! stop! we'll do it again)
Wait a minute, wait a minute, oh hold it! Hold it! Hold it!
Hey (hey) ho (ho) hey (hey) ho (ho) hey (hey) ho (ho) hey
Oh one more time (just one more time)

[Chorus 3]
Say it one more time right now (just one more time)
Say it one more time right now (just one more time)
Say it one more time right now (just one more time)
Say it one more time right now (just one more time)
Say it one more time right now (just one more time)

[Verse 3]
Hey (hey) ho (ho) hey (hey) ho (ho) hey (hey) ho (ho) hey
Ah! Make me feel so good (make me feel so good)
Make me feel so good now yeah (make me feel so good)
Woah! Baby (make me feel so good)
Make me feel so good yeah (make me feel so good)
Make me feel so good yeah (make me feel so good)
Make me feel so good yeah (make me feel so good)

[Chorus 4]
Awh it's all right (baby it's all right)
Awh it's all right (baby it's all right)
Awh it's all right (baby it's all right)
Awh it's all right (baby it's all right)
Awh it's all right (baby it's all right)
Awh it's all right (baby it's all right)

[Chorus 5]
Woah! Shake that thing now (baby shake that thing)
Woah! Shake that thing now (baby shake that thing)
Woah! Shake that thing now (baby shake that thing)
Woah! Shake that thing now (baby shake that thing)
Woah! Shake that thing now (baby shake that thing)
Woah! Shake that thing now (baby shake that thing)

[Chorus 6]
Woah! I feel all right now yeah (make me feel all right)
Woah! I feel all right now yeah (make me feel all right)
Woah! I feel all right now yeah (make me feel all right)
Woah! I feel all right now yeah (make me feel all right)
Woah! I feel all right now yeah (make me feel all right)
Woah! I feel all right now yeah (make me feel all right)
Bob Roman
2018-11-27 02:47:44 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
The moaning parts are lyrics?
In that context, yeah.
All that matters is what comes out of the speakers.

--
BR
SavoyBG
2018-11-27 03:00:12 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
The moaning parts are lyrics?
In that context, yeah.
All that matters is what comes out of the speakers.
So, you're saying that any vocal sounds are lyrics whether they are written in the sheet music or not?

Webster disagrees:

lyric noun
lyr·​ic | \ˈlir-ik
\
Definition of lyric

the words of a song —often used in plural
SavoyBG
2018-11-27 03:14:55 UTC
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Let's bring an other Ray Charles lyrical masterpiece into the mix. It's my favorite by RC.

Wooh, well, don't you know, baby?
Child, don't you know, baby?
Oww, don't you know, baby?
Little girl, little girl, don't you know?
Please listen to me, baby
Girl, I'm in love with you so

Turn your lamp down low
I said turn your lamp down low
Wooh, turn it down
Please turn your lamp down low
Come on baby
Girl, I'm in love with you so

Now I know I've been away
For such a long time
But now baby
I can't get you off of my mind

So come on, please baby come on
Come on, come on
Love your daddy all night long

Now if you love me
Like I love you
We can do all the things that we
Used to do

So come on, oww, baby come on
Please baby come on
Love your daddy all night long

Say, have you heard, baby?
Ray Charles is in town
Let's mess around till the midnight hour
See what he's puttin' down

Come on
Please baby, come on, child
Oh Lord, baby
Come on, all night long
Bob Roman
2018-11-27 03:15:36 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
So, you're saying that any vocal sounds are lyrics whether they are
written in the sheet music or not?
No, I specifically said the moans are obviously lyrics in that context.

And anyway, your lyric sheet tries it's best to represent what we all hear.

--
BR
SavoyBG
2018-11-27 03:18:52 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
So, you're saying that any vocal sounds are lyrics whether they are
written in the sheet music or not?
No, I specifically said the moans are obviously lyrics in that context.
Is every vocalization in this record part of the lyrics?


Bob Roman
2018-11-27 03:38:03 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Is every vocalization in this record part of the lyrics?
http://youtu.be/VRI1yzn2ugA
Of course. They tie the thing together. And on the lyric sheet they are represented (inadequately) with the word "uh"

--
BR
Eric Ramon
2018-11-27 03:09:33 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Now.
Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or
"What'd I Say."
"What'd I Say" is obviously better. Especially when the girls start moaning.
The moaning parts are lyrics?
In that context, yeah.
what in the world do you mean by "official lyrics"? Who makes it official?
SavoyBG
2018-11-27 03:16:13 UTC
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Post by Eric Ramon
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Now.
Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or
"What'd I Say."
"What'd I Say" is obviously better. Especially when the girls start
moaning.
The moaning parts are lyrics?
In that context, yeah.
what in the world do you mean by "official lyrics"? Who makes it official?
The sheet music certified by the music publisher.
Roger Ford
2018-11-27 06:08:19 UTC
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 19:09:33 -0800 (PST), Eric Ramon
Post by Eric Ramon
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Now.
Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or
"What'd I Say."
"What'd I Say" is obviously better. Especially when the girls start moaning.
The moaning parts are lyrics?
In that context, yeah.
what in the world do you mean by "official lyrics"? Who makes it official?
Progessive Music.a member of BMI makes it oifficial.

They own the publishing rights to the song



ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "m" in my e-mail address (***@mmail.com).
Please delete same before responding.Thank you!
Roger Ford
2018-11-27 06:01:51 UTC
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 18:30:55 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Now.
Which lyrics do you think are better, those in "Mess Around" or "What'd I Say."
"What'd I Say" is obviously better. Especially when the girls start moaning.
The moaning parts are lyrics?
In that context, yeah.
Thats a nonsense

So that makes RC's "roar" in the recording part of the lyrics too?

These are spontaneous outpourings that make the SOUND of the record so
GREAT!!!

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "m" in my e-mail address (***@mmail.com).
Please delete same before responding.Thank you!
Bob Roman
2018-11-27 14:50:49 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
These are spontaneous outpourings that make the SOUND of the record so
GREAT!!!
Spontaneous outpourings are rarely harmonized.

--
BR
Roger Ford
2018-11-27 15:18:03 UTC
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On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 06:50:49 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
These are spontaneous outpourings that make the SOUND of the record so
GREAT!!!
Spontaneous outpourings are rarely harmonized.
Well they certainly go an AWFUL long way in making RC's "What'd I Say"
the masterpiece that it is

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "m" in my e-mail address (***@mmail.com).
Please delete same before responding.Thank you!
SavoyBG
2018-11-27 15:22:55 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 06:50:49 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
These are spontaneous outpourings that make the SOUND of the record so
GREAT!!!
Spontaneous outpourings are rarely harmonized.
Well they certainly go an AWFUL long way in making RC's "What'd I Say"
the masterpiece that it is
I don't agree. I like part 1 without the girls much better than part 2 with the girls.
Roger Ford
2018-11-27 16:50:43 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 06:50:49 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
These are spontaneous outpourings that make the SOUND of the record so
GREAT!!!
Spontaneous outpourings are rarely harmonized.
Well they certainly go an AWFUL long way in making RC's "What'd I Say"
the masterpiece that it is
I don't agree. I like part 1 without the girls much better than part 2 with the girls.
I thought we always usually rate the whole "What'd I Say" as a
complete entity?

But no matter....if you want Parts 1 & 2 I'll play

I'm the opposite way round.

Part 1 is great but Part 2 with the gals in tow is just awesome!!

ROGER FORD
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SavoyBG
2018-11-27 17:03:38 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 06:50:49 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
These are spontaneous outpourings that make the SOUND of the record so
GREAT!!!
Spontaneous outpourings are rarely harmonized.
Well they certainly go an AWFUL long way in making RC's "What'd I Say"
the masterpiece that it is
I don't agree. I like part 1 without the girls much better than part 2 with the girls.
I thought we always usually rate the whole "What'd I Say" as a
complete entity?
We do, but I'm just saying, I like the first half much better. I think when they played it on the radio in 1959 they just played part 1 of the 45.
Mark Dintenfass
2018-11-27 18:10:36 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 06:50:49 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
These are spontaneous outpourings that make the SOUND of the record so
GREAT!!!
Spontaneous outpourings are rarely harmonized.
Well they certainly go an AWFUL long way in making RC's "What'd I Say"
the masterpiece that it is
I don't agree. I like part 1 without the girls much better than part 2
with the girls.
I thought we always usually rate the whole "What'd I Say" as a
complete entity?
We do, but I'm just saying, I like the first half much better. I think when
they played it on the radio in 1959 they just played part 1 of the 45.
They did to start with, but after it hit big, they sometimes played
part 2, though I can't recall them ever playing the whole thing
together. For that you had to wait for the LP version.
--
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Roger Ford
2018-11-27 18:25:02 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 06:50:49 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
These are spontaneous outpourings that make the SOUND of the record so
GREAT!!!
Spontaneous outpourings are rarely harmonized.
Well they certainly go an AWFUL long way in making RC's "What'd I Say"
the masterpiece that it is
I don't agree. I like part 1 without the girls much better than part 2 with the girls.
I thought we always usually rate the whole "What'd I Say" as a
complete entity?
We do, but I'm just saying, I like the first half much better. I think when they played it on the radio in 1959 they just played part 1 of the 45.
Oh yes here too the radio only rever played Part 1. Don't think the
BBC touched it but it got plays on Luxembourg

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Roger Ford
2018-11-27 05:55:45 UTC
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On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 19:59:26 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
All lyrics "have" meaning.
But does that meaning have anything to do with why you like the record?"
Yes, sometimes.
For example, I would have liked Elvis's recording of "Fever" more if he kept the original LWJ lyrics and hadn't adopted the Peggy Lee changes.
I love the LWJ "Fever" but unlike most here I think,I also think Peggy
Lee did a great job on her version of the song including the new (and
clever) lyric lines
Post by Bob Roman
And I prefer the "sin" version of "One Night."
I'm with Bruce. I prefer the released Elvis version of "One Night"

-


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SavoyBG
2018-11-27 06:02:37 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 19:59:26 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
All lyrics "have" meaning.
But does that meaning have anything to do with why you like the record?"
Yes, sometimes.
For example, I would have liked Elvis's recording of "Fever" more if he kept the original LWJ lyrics and hadn't adopted the Peggy Lee changes.
I love the LWJ "Fever" but unlike most here I think,I also think Peggy
Lee did a great job on her version of the song including the new (and
clever) lyric lines
It's on my 1958 list, but not high. It's a 7.
Roger Ford
2018-11-27 09:23:32 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 19:59:26 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
All lyrics "have" meaning.
But does that meaning have anything to do with why you like the record?"
Yes, sometimes.
For example, I would have liked Elvis's recording of "Fever" more if he kept the original LWJ lyrics and hadn't adopted the Peggy Lee changes.
I love the LWJ "Fever" but unlike most here I think,I also think Peggy
Lee did a great job on her version of the song including the new (and
clever) lyric lines
It's on my 1958 list, but not high. It's a 7.
In my book La Lee did two of the best remakes of all time with her
"Why Don't You Do Right" (with the Goodman ensemble) in 1942 and
"Fever" in 1958

ROGER FORD
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Roger Ford
2018-11-26 06:57:49 UTC
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On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 18:46:53 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by SavoyBG
Do the (meaning of) the lyrics in "I've Got A Woman." have anything to do
with why you like the record?
The lyrics of "I've Got A Woman" must have meaning, or Jo Stafford would not have bothered changing them.
Yes they have meaning but I agree with Bruce. That's not why we like
the record. And as for Jo Stafford here she's just singing a
"sanitised" version of the Ray Charles hit. Worth noting that in the
cover notes to the UK copy of the first Elvis LP his version of the
song is also referred to as "I Got A Sweetie"
Post by Bob Roman
The lyrics of "Battle of New Orleans" must have meaning, or Homer and Jethro would not have bothered changing them.
Homer & Jethro are merely doing an unfunny "answer" record to the
Horton hit. There were THOUSANDS of similar C&W "answers" and
"sequels"
Post by Bob Roman
The lyrics of "The Wild Side of Life" must have meaning, or Kitty Wells would not have bothered changing them.
Kitty Wells had NOTHING to do with changing the words here.

What happened was that famed record producer Jay Miller wrote an
answer song to Hank Thompson's huge "The Wild Side Of Life" hit and
recorded "Did God Make Honky Tonk Angels?" with young Al Montgomery
(The "Al" was short for Alice) and released it on his Feature label.
This is the original version



It was then routinely COVERED by Kitty Wells for Decca who took it to
#1 on the country chart as "It Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels"

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2018-11-26 13:18:02 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
The lyrics of "I've Got A Woman" must have meaning, or Jo Stafford would
not have bothered changing them.
Yes they have meaning but I agree with Bruce. That's not why we like
the record. And as for Jo Stafford here she's just singing a
"sanitised" version of the Ray Charles hit. Worth noting that in the
cover notes to the UK copy of the first Elvis LP his version of the
song is also referred to as "I Got A Sweetie"
It's not just sanitized. It's also gender matched. Jo Stafford singing "I've Got A Woman" would have been pretty scandalous in the 1950s. People would have paid attention to those lyrics.

And my examples of parodies and answer records were to make the point that the change of lyrics in those cases create entirely new songs. The experience of listening to those new songs is different from listening to the originals, despite the fact that the melodies are the same.

The position that you routinely take is different from the argument that Bruce routinely makes. You say that you choose not to attend to lyrics, unless it's something clever by Jerry Leiber, because the records you like best tend to have lyrics that are inane. Bruce claims that to even comprehend the words gets in the way of appreciating the music. Your statement simply tells what you do, so no one can disagree. Bruce's statement is peculiarly self-serving, and invites disagreement.

--
BR
SavoyBG
2018-11-26 14:57:04 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
The lyrics of "I've Got A Woman" must have meaning, or Jo Stafford would
not have bothered changing them.
Yes they have meaning but I agree with Bruce. That's not why we like
the record. And as for Jo Stafford here she's just singing a
"sanitised" version of the Ray Charles hit. Worth noting that in the
cover notes to the UK copy of the first Elvis LP his version of the
song is also referred to as "I Got A Sweetie"
It's not just sanitized. It's also gender matched. Jo Stafford singing "I've Got A Woman" would have been pretty scandalous in the 1950s. People would have paid attention to those lyrics.
And my examples of parodies and answer records were to make the point that the change of lyrics in those cases create entirely new songs. The experience of listening to those new songs is different from listening to the originals, despite the fact that the melodies are the same.
The position that you routinely take is different from the argument that Bruce routinely makes. You say that you choose not to attend to lyrics, unless it's something clever by Jerry Leiber, because the records you like best tend to have lyrics that are inane. Bruce claims that to even comprehend the words gets in the way of appreciating the music. Your statement simply tells what you do, so no one can disagree. Bruce's statement is peculiarly self-serving, and invites disagreement.
If you're focusing on what the lyrics mean you're not fully appreciating chord changes, vocal harmony, counter melodies, bass lines, and other attributes of these records. You just need too much of your concentration to absorb lyrics and to get what they mean.
Dennis C
2018-11-26 15:44:52 UTC
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Only if you are going to listen to the song one time,you simple man!!

A song should be revisited time and time again and yes.....there is a poetic element in song lyrics that when they are artfully inlaid, adds to and enriches the whole, baby!!
SavoyBG
2018-11-26 15:59:29 UTC
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Post by Dennis C
Only if you are going to listen to the song one time,you simple man!!
A song should be revisited time and time again and yes.....there is a poetic element in song lyrics that when they are artfully inlaid, adds to and enriches the whole, baby!!
Name a few songs that have your favorite bass lines.

How about your favorite sax breaks?
Dennis C
2018-11-26 17:00:58 UTC
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What does that have to do with anything concerning the damn lyrics!?

Okay, I'll play your silly game!!

Nilsson's "Jump into the Fire" with that propulsive bass by Herbie Flowers that drives the song and then he brilliantly detunes it during the guitar and then the drum solo!! One of my favorites to be sure!

I would also argue however that if Nilsson's plaintive yet assures repetitive lyric: "We could make each other happy.....we could make each other happy!!" be replaced by " Bruce Grossberg is a dumbass....Bruce Grossberg is a dumbaaaaas"! tthat song would go from a 7 to a 9 in my book, baby
SavoyBG
2018-11-26 17:50:16 UTC
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Post by Dennis C
What does that have to do with anything concerning the damn lyrics!?
Okay, I'll play your silly game!!
Nilsson's "Jump into the Fire" with that propulsive bass by Herbie Flowers that drives the song and then he brilliantly detunes it during the guitar and then the drum solo!! One of my favorites to be sure!
I would also argue however that if Nilsson's plaintive yet assures repetitive lyric: "We could make each other happy.....we could make each other happy!!" be replaced by " Bruce Grossberg is a dumbass....Bruce Grossberg is a dumbaaaaas"! tthat song would go from a 7 to a 9 in my book, baby
You need one more syllable. How about "Bruce Grossberg is a dumbass jerk."
Dennis C
2018-11-26 17:57:38 UTC
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You ain't no jerk, Brucie!

A wee tug is more like it, baby!
Roger Ford
2018-11-27 09:26:30 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
How about your favorite sax breaks?
Gene Upshaw on "Come Go With Me" and Jimmy Wright on "The Woo Woo
Train"

ROGER FORD
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Roger Ford
2018-11-27 11:39:57 UTC
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2018 05:18:02 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
The lyrics of "I've Got A Woman" must have meaning, or Jo Stafford would=
not have bothered changing them.
Yes they have meaning but I agree with Bruce. That's not why we like
the record. And as for Jo Stafford here she's just singing a
"sanitised" version of the Ray Charles hit. Worth noting that in the
cover notes to the UK copy of the first Elvis LP his version of the
song is also referred to as "I Got A Sweetie"
It's not just sanitized. It's also gender matched.
I didn't see the neccessity of pointing out the obvious fact of lyric
changes to make the male orientated song suitable for a woman to sing.
This happens in countless songs where the gender of the vocalist
changes and is normally a given
Post by Bob Roman
And my examples of parodies and answer records were to make the point that =
the change of lyrics in those cases create entirely new songs. The experien=
ce of listening to those new songs is different from listening to the origi=
nals, despite the fact that the melodies are the same.
Yes the "sound" of these new "answer/sequel" versions are different
but in most cases I usually find them inferior---not because of the
new lyrics but because of that overall sound

"It Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk Angels" is an exception since
Kitty Wells not only improves on the Al Montgomery original of the
"answer" song but I like her version even better than the Hank
Thompson recording that is IMO the best version (tho not the first
one) of the original "The Wild Side Of Life" song
Post by Bob Roman
The position that you routinely take is different from the argument that Br=
uce routinely makes. You say that you choose not to attend to lyrics
I have never put my argument in those terms.

What I usually say is that lyrics usually mean little to me since I
find the lyrics of most songs juvenile and banal. That has NOTHING to
do with the final "sound" of the record as witness Little Richard's
"Tutti-Frutti" whose lyrics are everything that I describe above and
yet is my choice as #1 best record of 1955
Post by Bob Roman
unless it's something clever by Jerry Leiber
Or Chuck Berry or Pomus & Shuman or Goffin & King or...or...

Plus of course or Porter or Kern or Berlin or..or..
Post by Bob Roman
because the records you like best =
tend to have lyrics that are inane.
Exactly and I've been having this same "lyric" debate for decades now
with academics who are usually determined to somehow "prove" that
their elevated love of lyrics gives them some kind of superior and
special edge over me in the judging and appraising of our kind of
music.

And of course that IS a nonsense!



ROGER FORD
-----------------------

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Bob Roman
2018-11-27 12:14:07 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
because the records you like best =
tend to have lyrics that are inane.
Exactly and I've been having this same "lyric" debate for decades now
with academics who are usually determined to somehow "prove" that
their elevated love of lyrics gives them some kind of superior and
special edge over me in the judging and appraising of our kind of
music.
And of course that IS a nonsense!
I don't think anyone here would disagree with you in that debate. It's not a good look for anyone to claim that their style of listening to music makes them a superior listener to music.

--
BR
Mark Dintenfass
2018-11-27 13:25:47 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Exactly and I've been having this same "lyric" debate for decades now
with academics who are usually determined to somehow "prove" that
their elevated love of lyrics gives them some kind of superior and
special edge over me in the judging and appraising of our kind of
music.
And of course that IS a nonsense!
I assume the academics you've been arguing with doesn't include me
since I've always argued against those in the 60s who gave far too much
weight to lyrics in judging records. My only argument here has been
with Bruce who insists lyrics NEVER matter, perhaps because he
mistakenly believes that those who pay attention to lyrics are always
looking for "deep" meanings. My position is like yours. When lyrics are
really good, as with Leiber and Chuck Berry and others you mentioned,
paying attention to them increases the pleasure. Period.
--
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Roger Ford
2018-11-27 13:42:41 UTC
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On Tue, 27 Nov 2018 07:25:47 -0600, Mark Dintenfass
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by Roger Ford
Exactly and I've been having this same "lyric" debate for decades now
with academics who are usually determined to somehow "prove" that
their elevated love of lyrics gives them some kind of superior and
special edge over me in the judging and appraising of our kind of
music.
And of course that IS a nonsense!
I assume the academics you've been arguing with doesn't include me
since I've always argued against those in the 60s who gave far too much
weight to lyrics in judging records. My only argument here has been
with Bruce who insists lyrics NEVER matter, perhaps because he
mistakenly believes that those who pay attention to lyrics are always
looking for "deep" meanings. My position is like yours. When lyrics are
really good, as with Leiber and Chuck Berry and others you mentioned,
paying attention to them increases the pleasure. Period.
Nah you're in the clear :)

You and I have generally been in reasonable harmony on most things
here over the years---at least up to The "British Invasion"........lol
.

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

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SavoyBG
2018-11-27 14:12:50 UTC
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When lyrics are really good, as with Leiber
Which line from "Idol" is better?

"Got down on my knees and began to pray, I said Idol tell me where's my big foot May"

OR

I parked my car and I looked around. There was a mess of empty beer cans laying on the ground."


How about from "Hound Dog," which line is better?

"You told me you was high class, but I can see through that."

OR

"You made me feel so blue, you made me weep and moan."
Roger Ford
2018-11-25 18:00:59 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:55:25 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit =
#1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTeen Angel=E2=80=9D
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
The UK cover version is every bit as awful IMO
http://youtu.be/DLqmVXm3lPM
I would not have thought it was possible, but that's much worse than the Dinning. I gave the Dinning a 5, this one gets a 1.
Do you personally grade any records 0?
Yes, but that's very tough for any record to attain.
I See The Moon - Mariners
I'd reluctantly have to give this a 1 because IMO the UK cover (that
got to #1 here) contrives to be even worse thus deserving it's 0
rating




ROGER FORD
-----------------------

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SavoyBG
2018-11-25 18:10:45 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:55:25 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit =
#1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTeen Angel=E2=80=9D
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
The UK cover version is every bit as awful IMO
http://youtu.be/DLqmVXm3lPM
I would not have thought it was possible, but that's much worse than the Dinning. I gave the Dinning a 5, this one gets a 1.
Do you personally grade any records 0?
Yes, but that's very tough for any record to attain.
I See The Moon - Mariners
I'd reluctantly have to give this a 1 because IMO the UK cover (that
got to #1 here) contrives to be even worse thus deserving it's 0
rating
http://youtu.be/pIAzZJI8Nq0
They can both be zeroes!
Roger Ford
2018-11-25 18:21:01 UTC
Reply
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Roger Ford
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:55:25 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit =
#1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTeen Angel=E2=80=9D
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
The UK cover version is every bit as awful IMO
http://youtu.be/DLqmVXm3lPM
I would not have thought it was possible, but that's much worse than the Dinning. I gave the Dinning a 5, this one gets a 1.
Do you personally grade any records 0?
Yes, but that's very tough for any record to attain.
I See The Moon - Mariners
I'd reluctantly have to give this a 1 because IMO the UK cover (that
got to #1 here) contrives to be even worse thus deserving it's 0
rating
http://youtu.be/pIAzZJI8Nq0
They can both be zeroes!
No the Mariners desrve a 1 because their version is 16 seconds
shorter!! :)

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "m" in my e-mail address (***@mmail.com).
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Steve Mc
2018-11-25 16:57:32 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
On Sat, 24 Nov 2018 13:55:25 -0800 (PST), Bob Roman
A writer named Tom Breihan has been reviewing, in order, every song to hit =
#1 in the Billboard Hot 100.
Mark Dinning =E2=80=93 =E2=80=9CTeen Angel=E2=80=9D
HIT #1: February 8, 1960
STAYED AT #1: 1 week
The UK cover version is every bit as awful IMO
http://youtu.be/DLqmVXm3lPM
ROGER FORD
-----------------------
Obviously they should have punched out the outer part of the 45 spindle
punchout, the part that contained the grooves.
--
Steve Mc

DNA to SBC to respond
RWC
2018-11-29 04:42:37 UTC
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One man's trash is another girls treasure (and vice versa :-)

"Elvis Presley’s ‘Heartbreak Hotel’ in 1956 paved the way for exploring the
darker side of life in much deeper, more unsettling scenarios than the
traditional love ballad."

"I thought the teenage tragedy craze was fun. A lot of the songs were
ironic--the scenarios got more and more bizarre as time went on, but they had an
emotional impact as well. I know people who used to cry when they heard "Teen
Angel." You could enjoy them on many different levels."

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/remembering-teen-angel-songwriter-jean-dinning-236964/
"Teen Angel": Released Dec 1959, the song hit #1 in Feb 1960, and a rash of
copycat tragedy songs soon followed – including:

Ray Peterson’s “Tell Laura I Love Her” [RCA 7745] - May 1960; w.Hugo Peretti AHO
an answer record to this was:
Marilyn Michaels' “Tell Tommy I Miss Him” [RCA 7771] - 1960; Billy Mure led Orch
- UK version, see video

The Everly Brothers’ “Ebony Eyes” [Warner Bros. 5199] - Jan 1961; "would those
having relatives or friends on flight number 1203 please report to the chapel
across the street at once."

Wayne Cochran's “Last Kiss” [Gala 117] - summer '61
Wayne recorded four versions of the song within 2 or 3 years:
- Gala 117;;Vidalia GA
- Boblo 101-A;;Macon GA
- King 5856
- Aire 150;;Dublin GA
Wayne also composed death song "No Return", sung by Stanley Kimball in '65


Mark Dinning's “The Pickup” [MGM 13061; b-side] - Feb 1962; "I'd fall in love
with her, and she would love me...{but} I told my darling I couldn't see her
again...The morning papers told how she died, jumped from a bridge,..."


Neither Jean nor Mark Dinning ever scored another big hit after “Teen Angel”
fell off the charts in mid-1960. Jean wrote the song alone, but she initially
shared credit with her husband Red Surrey per their long-standing agreement.
“When we divorced ‘Teen Angel’ was turned back to me as part of the settlement,”
Dinning said. “It didn’t seem like a hot property at the time and was past its
peak. Not long afterwards, a friend called and said ‘Teen Angel’ was in a
movie…American Graffiti.”

'Teen Angel’ Singer Mark Dinning Dies At Age 52 (March 1986)
https://www.apnews.com/e21f49e213dcac225ef0b9e8c00db8f8

** Other '55-'64 Teen/Young-Adult Death (or near-death :-) discs **:

in approx. chronological order

Donald Woods and The Vel-Aires w. Ray Johnson Combo - My Baby's Gone (Death Of
An Angel) [Flip 306;;L.A.] - June 1955; "I want to be beside her, but I'm afraid
to die..."

The Cheers - Black Denim Trousers And Motorcycle Boots [Capitol 3219] - Aug
1955; w.Les Baxter's Orch; "Then he took off like the Devil...but he hit a
screamin' diesel that was California bound, and when they cleared the wreckage
all they found was his..."

Jody Reynolds - Endless Sleep [Demon 1507;;L.A.] - March 1958; written in '56
Demon had Reynolds change the song's ending, to have the drowning girl saved;
Al Casey and Howard Roberts on guitars
In the UK, this song was (a similar sounding) Marty Wilde's first chart hit,
reaching #4.

***Tony Casanova - The Grave [Crest 1053;;Hollywood] - Oct 1958; dire vocal!

"Tony Casanova (Otilio Perez) went to school with Ritchie Valens (Richard
Valenzuela) at Pacoima Jr High School. I was told they were in the same grade."

Johnny Preston - Running Bear [Mercury 71474] - June 1959; "as their hands
touched and their lips met, the ragin' river pulled them down."

Bobby Swanson {& his Sonics} - The Ballad Of Angel [Igloo 1003; b-side;
Anchorage] - Nov 1959; recorded in Denver or Chicago; "we went to the movies
and to the high school prom...and then one day my angel went, up to heaven so
bright..."

- less 'cavenous'

The Cadets - Car Crash [Jan Lar 102] - 1960; with a bridge of hysterical
sobbing; "I know I drove too fast, thought she would get a thrill, now I see my
baby lying there on the road..."


Paul Hampton - Two Hour Honeymoon [Dot 16084] - Apr 1960; "I guess you were
right, honey, we were driving too fast..."; arr. & cond. by Burt Bacharach


***Julian Rose - The Rumour [Dore 563] - July 1960; "they found her at home, in
her room all alone, with a letter in her hand..."
Not Available in U.S.


Tommy Dee - Ballad Of A Drag Race [Challenge 59087] - July 1960;"{out of
jealousy over a girl} two {best friends} went out {for a two-car drag race} but
{only} one came back..."


Cliff Greaves {ex-Tennessee DJ, Elvis Memphis Mafia member since 1956} - Long
Black Hearse [Liberty 55263] - July 1960; upbeat R&B; "...the pretty girl had
drowned...with a note that said, to the boy next door, remember the happiness,
that we once knew..."; arranged by Snuff Garrett


Johnny Cymbal - The Water Was Red [MGM 12978] - Jan 1961; ending with a fantasy
retribution, meanwhile "the water was deep and the white fin came into sight..."


Bobby Swanson - Janie's Face [Donna 1336;;Hollywood] - Jan 1961; "woke in the
still of the night, a heavenly glow shone above, {she} stood there before me,
tear drops on her face..."


Chase Webster - Moody River [Southern Sound 101;;NYC] - March 1961; w. Frank
Slay AHO


The Mystics - Star Crossed Lovers [Laurie 3086] - March 1961; "they never saw
the oncoming car..."
- stereo

Del Shannon - The Prom [LP BigTop 'Runaway'] - June 1961; tear-jerker supreme;
"if I'd have picked her up on time..."
- mono
- stereo

John Leyton - Johnny Remember Me [Top Rank 577] - July 1961;
2.5 million views; read the
interesting informative comments at http://www.45cat.com/record/jar577;
its eerily ethereal atmosphere (produced by Joe Meek) perfectly complements a
song about a young man being haunted by his dead sweetheart;
it's been claimed that "Girl In The Wood" by Jimmie Rodgers was the inspiration
for the song:


Cathy Carroll - Jimmy Love [Triodex 110;;NYC] - July 1961; "I walked home with
Jim...suddenly lightning flashed, and struck a tree above, and with a dreadful
roar it crashed..."; semi-operatic melodrama
- MusicProf78

Terry Tyler - {the rocks} A Thousand Feet Below [Landa 679, UK Pye Int 25119] -
Oct 1961; one suicide induces another


Mort (Doc) Downey, Jr. with Harvie June Van - The Ballad Of Billy Brown [Cadence
1407] - Nov 1961; "he won't be back in school this winter, he won't be there to
hold her hand...they bury Billy Brown, today"


Kenny Karen - Susie Forgive Me [Columbia 42264] - Dec 1961; the combination of
story elements is so ridiculous it could be a parody


Billy Fury - Don't Jump {from a cliff top} {Fury} [London 9515] - Feb 1962; "You
cannot always find another {girl like this to love}..."; little known UK gem; a
meaty number that Elvis could have made famous
or


Dickey Lee - Patches [{Mercury sub.} Smash 1758] - May 1962; "But a girl from
that place would just bring me disgrace, so my folks won't let me love you...
I hear a neighbor tellin my father, he said a girl name of Patches was found..."

The Emotions {Brooklyn NY} - Echo [Kapp 490X] - Oct 1962; "then I lost control,
the car turned over, I heard her calling..."; doo wop


Ray Peterson - Give Us Your Blessing [Dunes 2025] - May 1963; about death
following parents refusing to approve of a young lovers’ marriage.
- MusicProf78

Stonewall Jackson - B.J. The D.J. [Columbia 42889] - Oct 1963; #1 country hit;
"badly worn tires...missed the curve...at 80mph"
- stereo

The Four Seasons - No Surfin' Today [Philips 40166] - Jan 1964; "She was my
surfer girl...the angry sea, took my love from me..."


Jan And Dean - Dead Man's Curve [Liberty 55672] - Feb 1964; stereo version has
a channel that highlights the percussion

Twinkle {Lynn Annette Ripley b.15-07-48, Surbiton} - Terry (UK Decca F.12013, US
Tollie 9040, Canada Quality 1703) - 1964; "we had a quarrel, he rode {off} into
the night, accelerated his motor bike, I cried to him in fright, 'don't do it,
don't do it, don't do it'..."; Jimmy Page played on the track, a track which
whipped up a storm of outrage and bans, but it reached #4 in Dec 1964.

- Live
Lynn passed away in May 2015

J. Frank Wilson - Last Kiss [Le Cam 722;; Fort Worth TX] - fall 1964; recorded
in San Angelo TX

The Shangri-Las - Leader Of The Pack [Red Bird 10-014;;NYC] - Sep 1964

Bernadette Carroll - The {football} Hero [Laurie 3278] - Nov 1964; tear-jerker;
"on the way home from the game, the bus turned over and everybody was..."


** Parodies of this Teen Death genre **

The Detergents - Leader Of The Laundromat [Roulette 4590] - Nov 1964

Jimmy Cross - I Want My Baby Back [{Vee Jay sub.} Tollie 9039] - Dec 1964;
"Gotta have my baby back, I miss her oh so much, can't live without her
touch..[Digging and creaking] I've got my baby back"


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