Discussion:
Phil Ochs (if OT, please indulge me)
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Bob Roman
2018-11-30 20:02:55 UTC
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Will Dockery mentioned Phil Ochs in the Billie Holiday thread. That mention reminded me of a thing I recently discovered. Ochs started recording in 1964, so this discussion is just off-topic, but please indulge me.

Some of you know that I like to explore the history of the university that I graduated from. I knew that Phil Ochs was an alumnus, and When I learned that he had been a journalism major I went looking for anything he may have written for the student newspaper.

One thing I found was a review of the play "A Thurber Carnival" from January 1962. Ochs by this time was already a coffee-shop folk singer. James Thurber was a favorite son of the university, so it might make sense that a young student with an artistic bent might identify with him. The review discussed specific things from the production like performances and staging, but ending with this discussion of what Ochs saw in Thurber himself:

"Thurber's effect stems from his association with common sentiments and everyday experiences with which his audience can identify. The material teases the audience without preaching; it is sophisticated enough to chide without provoking. Thurber's genius was a product of his deep insight into mankind, and his humor was a product of his deeper love."

This review got me thinking. To what extent did Ochs's own work live up to this value, to "tease without preaching" and "chide without provoking"? Bob Dylan, after all, later criticized Ochs for being too politically strident.

--
BR
SavoyBG
2018-11-30 20:16:53 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Will Dockery mentioned Phil Ochs in the Billie Holiday thread. That mention reminded me of a thing I recently discovered. Ochs started recording in 1964, so this discussion is just off-topic, but please indulge me.
Some of you know that I like to explore the history of the university that I graduated from. I knew that Phil Ochs was an alumnus, and When I learned that he had been a journalism major I went looking for anything he may have written for the student newspaper.
"Thurber's effect stems from his association with common sentiments and everyday experiences with which his audience can identify. The material teases the audience without preaching; it is sophisticated enough to chide without provoking. Thurber's genius was a product of his deep insight into mankind, and his humor was a product of his deeper love."
This review got me thinking. To what extent did Ochs's own work live up to this value, to "tease without preaching" and "chide without provoking"? Bob Dylan, after all, later criticized Ochs for being too politically strident.
--
BR
Fascinating!

Yawn...
Dennis C
2018-11-30 20:33:03 UTC
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Roman's dull but boring dreck eats away the collective brain of the room once again!!!
SavoyBG
2018-11-30 20:57:03 UTC
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Post by Dennis C
Roman's dull but boring dreck eats away the collective brain of the room once again!!!
Why would you put a "but" in between "dull" and "boring?"
Dennis C
2018-11-30 21:12:34 UTC
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Chuck Barris use to introduce an eminently gongable act with: " without further ado, this is the dull....but boring......

"
BobbyM
2018-11-30 21:10:52 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Will Dockery mentioned Phil Ochs in the Billie Holiday thread. That mention reminded me of a thing I recently discovered. Ochs started recording in 1964, so this discussion is just off-topic, but please indulge me.
Some of you know that I like to explore the history of the university that I graduated from. I knew that Phil Ochs was an alumnus, and When I learned that he had been a journalism major I went looking for anything he may have written for the student newspaper.
"Thurber's effect stems from his association with common sentiments and everyday experiences with which his audience can identify. The material teases the audience without preaching; it is sophisticated enough to chide without provoking. Thurber's genius was a product of his deep insight into mankind, and his humor was a product of his deeper love."
This review got me thinking. To what extent did Ochs's own work live up to this value, to "tease without preaching" and "chide without provoking"? Bob Dylan, after all, later criticized Ochs for being too politically strident.
On record, "Outside of a Small Circle of Friends" is about as close as
Ochs came to being less "politically strident" & it was as close as he
came to having a hit record. But this is probably the closest he really
came: Loading Image.... Even the
songs on the lp are mostly non-political.
Jim Colegrove
2018-11-30 22:31:13 UTC
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Post by BobbyM
Post by Bob Roman
Will Dockery mentioned Phil Ochs in the Billie Holiday thread. That mention reminded me of a thing I recently discovered. Ochs started recording in 1964, so this discussion is just off-topic, but please indulge me.
Some of you know that I like to explore the history of the university that I graduated from. I knew that Phil Ochs was an alumnus, and When I learned that he had been a journalism major I went looking for anything he may have written for the student newspaper.
"Thurber's effect stems from his association with common sentiments and everyday experiences with which his audience can identify. The material teases the audience without preaching; it is sophisticated enough to chide without provoking. Thurber's genius was a product of his deep insight into mankind, and his humor was a product of his deeper love."
This review got me thinking. To what extent did Ochs's own work live up to this value, to "tease without preaching" and "chide without provoking"? Bob Dylan, after all, later criticized Ochs for being too politically strident.
On record, "Outside of a Small Circle of Friends" is about as close as
Ochs came to being less "politically strident" & it was as close as he
came to having a hit record. But this is probably the closest he really
came: https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/08/imgL/877813258.jpg. Even the
songs on the lp are mostly non-political.
Yep, I always loved this cover shot, Bobby.
SavoyBG
2018-11-30 23:09:03 UTC
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Post by Jim Colegrove
Post by BobbyM
Post by Bob Roman
Will Dockery mentioned Phil Ochs in the Billie Holiday thread. That mention reminded me of a thing I recently discovered. Ochs started recording in 1964, so this discussion is just off-topic, but please indulge me.
Some of you know that I like to explore the history of the university that I graduated from. I knew that Phil Ochs was an alumnus, and When I learned that he had been a journalism major I went looking for anything he may have written for the student newspaper.
"Thurber's effect stems from his association with common sentiments and everyday experiences with which his audience can identify. The material teases the audience without preaching; it is sophisticated enough to chide without provoking. Thurber's genius was a product of his deep insight into mankind, and his humor was a product of his deeper love."
This review got me thinking. To what extent did Ochs's own work live up to this value, to "tease without preaching" and "chide without provoking"? Bob Dylan, after all, later criticized Ochs for being too politically strident.
On record, "Outside of a Small Circle of Friends" is about as close as
Ochs came to being less "politically strident" & it was as close as he
came to having a hit record. But this is probably the closest he really
came: https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/08/imgL/877813258.jpg. Even the
songs on the lp are mostly non-political.
Yep, I always loved this cover shot, Bobby.
Pickwick reissued that album?
BobbyM
2018-12-01 03:18:51 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Jim Colegrove
Post by BobbyM
Post by Bob Roman
Will Dockery mentioned Phil Ochs in the Billie Holiday thread. That mention reminded me of a thing I recently discovered. Ochs started recording in 1964, so this discussion is just off-topic, but please indulge me.
Some of you know that I like to explore the history of the university that I graduated from. I knew that Phil Ochs was an alumnus, and When I learned that he had been a journalism major I went looking for anything he may have written for the student newspaper.
"Thurber's effect stems from his association with common sentiments and everyday experiences with which his audience can identify. The material teases the audience without preaching; it is sophisticated enough to chide without provoking. Thurber's genius was a product of his deep insight into mankind, and his humor was a product of his deeper love."
This review got me thinking. To what extent did Ochs's own work live up to this value, to "tease without preaching" and "chide without provoking"? Bob Dylan, after all, later criticized Ochs for being too politically strident.
On record, "Outside of a Small Circle of Friends" is about as close as
Ochs came to being less "politically strident" & it was as close as he
came to having a hit record. But this is probably the closest he really
came: https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/08/imgL/877813258.jpg. Even the
songs on the lp are mostly non-political.
Yep, I always loved this cover shot, Bobby.
Pickwick reissued that album?
They actually did - but I didn't even notice that when I posted the
link. I was just trying to find a good sized picture of the cover.
Will Dockery
2018-12-03 11:16:13 UTC
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Post by BobbyM
Post by BobbyM
Post by Bob Roman
Will Dockery mentioned Phil Ochs in the Billie Holiday thread. That mention reminded me of a thing I recently discovered. Ochs started recording in 1964, so this discussion is just off-topic, but please indulge me.
Some of you know that I like to explore the history of the university that I graduated from. I knew that Phil Ochs was an alumnus, and When I learned that he had been a journalism major I went looking for anything he may have written for the student newspaper.
"Thurber's effect stems from his association with common sentiments and everyday experiences with which his audience can identify. The material teases the audience without preaching; it is sophisticated enough to chide without provoking. Thurber's genius was a product of his deep insight into mankind, and his humor was a product of his deeper love."
This review got me thinking. To what extent did Ochs's own work live up to this value, to "tease without preaching" and "chide without provoking"? Bob Dylan, after all, later criticized Ochs for being too politically strident.
On record, "Outside of a Small Circle of Friends" is about as close as
Ochs came to being less "politically strident" & it was as close as he
came to having a hit record. But this is probably the closest he really
https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/08/imgL/877813258.jpg
Post by BobbyM
Even the
Post by BobbyM
songs on the lp are mostly non-political.
Yep, I always loved this cover shot, Bobby.
I like the back cover blurb:

"50 Phil Ochs fans can't be wrong!"
SavoyBG
2018-12-03 14:47:54 UTC
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Post by BobbyM
Post by BobbyM
Post by BobbyM
Post by Bob Roman
Will Dockery mentioned Phil Ochs in the Billie Holiday thread. That mention reminded me of a thing I recently discovered. Ochs started recording in 1964, so this discussion is just off-topic, but please indulge me.
Some of you know that I like to explore the history of the university that I graduated from. I knew that Phil Ochs was an alumnus, and When I learned that he had been a journalism major I went looking for anything he may have written for the student newspaper.
"Thurber's effect stems from his association with common sentiments and everyday experiences with which his audience can identify. The material teases the audience without preaching; it is sophisticated enough to chide without provoking. Thurber's genius was a product of his deep insight into mankind, and his humor was a product of his deeper love."
This review got me thinking. To what extent did Ochs's own work live up to this value, to "tease without preaching" and "chide without provoking"? Bob Dylan, after all, later criticized Ochs for being too politically strident.
On record, "Outside of a Small Circle of Friends" is about as close as
Ochs came to being less "politically strident" & it was as close as he
came to having a hit record. But this is probably the closest he really
https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/08/imgL/877813258.jpg
Post by BobbyM
Even the
Post by BobbyM
songs on the lp are mostly non-political.
Yep, I always loved this cover shot, Bobby.
"50 Phil Ochs fans can't be wrong!"
Hey, that's 50 times more fans than you!
Bill B
2018-12-03 14:56:10 UTC
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You shouldn't count him as a fan.
SavoyBG
2018-12-03 15:02:39 UTC
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Post by Bill B
You shouldn't count him as a fan.
I was figuring his mother.
Will Dockery
2018-12-06 16:43:32 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by BobbyM
Post by BobbyM
Post by BobbyM
Post by Bob Roman
Will Dockery mentioned Phil Ochs in the Billie Holiday thread. That mention reminded me of a thing I recently discovered. Ochs started recording in 1964, so this discussion is just off-topic, but please indulge me.
Some of you know that I like to explore the history of the university that I graduated from. I knew that Phil Ochs was an alumnus, and When I learned that he had been a journalism major I went looking for anything he may have written for the student newspaper.
"Thurber's effect stems from his association with common sentiments and everyday experiences with which his audience can identify. The material teases the audience without preaching; it is sophisticated enough to chide without provoking. Thurber's genius was a product of his deep insight into mankind, and his humor was a product of his deeper love."
This review got me thinking. To what extent did Ochs's own work live up to this value, to "tease without preaching" and "chide without provoking"? Bob Dylan, after all, later criticized Ochs for being too politically strident.
On record, "Outside of a Small Circle of Friends" is about as close as
Ochs came to being less "politically strident" & it was as close as he
came to having a hit record. But this is probably the closest he really
https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/08/imgL/877813258.jpg
Post by BobbyM
Even the
Post by BobbyM
songs on the lp are mostly non-political.
Yep, I always loved this cover shot, Bobby.
"50 Phil Ochs fans can't be wrong!"
Hey, that's 50 times more fans than you!
Far be it from me to compete with the late great Phil Ochs.

:)
Will Dockery
2018-12-07 19:04:15 UTC
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Post by BobbyM
Post by Bob Roman
Will Dockery mentioned Phil Ochs in the Billie Holiday thread. That mention reminded me of a thing I recently discovered. Ochs started recording in 1964, so this discussion is just off-topic, but please indulge me.
Some of you know that I like to explore the history of the university that I graduated from. I knew that Phil Ochs was an alumnus, and When I learned that he had been a journalism major I went looking for anything he may have written for the student newspaper.
"Thurber's effect stems from his association with common sentiments and everyday experiences with which his audience can identify. The material teases the audience without preaching; it is sophisticated enough to chide without provoking. Thurber's genius was a product of his deep insight into mankind, and his humor was a product of his deeper love."
This review got me thinking. To what extent did Ochs's own work live up to this value, to "tease without preaching" and "chide without provoking"? Bob Dylan, after all, later criticized Ochs for being too politically strident.
On record, "Outside of a Small Circle of Friends" is about as close as
Ochs came to being less "politically strident" & it was as close as he
came to having a hit record. But this is probably the closest he really
https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/08/imgL/877813258.jpg
Post by BobbyM
Even the
songs on the lp are mostly non-political.
There was a very funny poke at Nixon and Agnew on that album, though:



"Folk singer Phil Ochs (1940-1976) talks and sings about the 1968 US election that brought President Richard Nixon and Vice-President Spiro Agnew to power. The song was part of Ochs' ironically titled album Greatest Hits, which was not a compilation but rather a collection of new songs. The album was was packaged to look like an Elvis' Gold Records compilation, including Ochs donning a gold lame suit and the subtitle "50 Phil Ochs Fans Can't Be Wrong", a reference to the subtitle of the second Elvis' Gold Records compilation, '50,000,000 Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong'..."
Dennis C
2018-12-08 00:10:28 UTC
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Ochs was a pathetic Bob Dylan apostle who was crushed when the great one wouldn't give him the time of day during his last decadent years!!

Why would Dylan throw him a bone?

Other than "Changes", I can't name one Phil Ochs tune that I've deliberately heard more than once baby!!

Give me Lightfoot and Tom Hardin anytime, baby!!
Will Dockery
2018-12-12 23:04:32 UTC
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Post by Dennis C
Ochs was a pathetic Bob Dylan apostle who was crushed when the great one wouldn't give him the time of day during his last decadent years!!
Why would Dylan throw him a bone?
Other than "Changes", I can't name one Phil Ochs tune that I've deliberately heard more than once baby!!
Give me Lightfoot and Tom Hardin anytime, baby!!
So, you don't like the music of Phil Ochs... ome of us do.

:)
Dennis C
2018-12-12 23:10:14 UTC
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Some people like Phil Ochs and some people like stomach cramps!!

To each, baby!!!

DianeE
2018-12-01 05:17:06 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Will Dockery mentioned Phil Ochs in the Billie Holiday thread. That mention reminded me of a thing I recently discovered. Ochs started recording in 1964, so this discussion is just off-topic, but please indulge me.
Some of you know that I like to explore the history of the university that I graduated from. I knew that Phil Ochs was an alumnus, and When I learned that he had been a journalism major I went looking for anything he may have written for the student newspaper.
"Thurber's effect stems from his association with common sentiments and everyday experiences with which his audience can identify. The material teases the audience without preaching; it is sophisticated enough to chide without provoking. Thurber's genius was a product of his deep insight into mankind, and his humor was a product of his deeper love."
This review got me thinking. To what extent did Ochs's own work live up to this value, to "tease without preaching" and "chide without provoking"? Bob Dylan, after all, later criticized Ochs for being too politically strident.
----------------
According to Wikipedia, Phil Ochs never graduated. Is he still
considered an alumnus?

Anyhow...he never had a charted hit, but Joan Baez charted with a song
Ochs wrote, "There But For Fortune." It got considerable airplay in NYC
although it only got to #50 on the Billboard pop chart. I think the
lyrics of that song might fit your bill. Depends what you consider
"preaching," I guess. I see the song as a kind of "Submitted for your
consideration...." piece.

One more observation about Phil Ochs. Like Bix Beiderbecke, he wasn't a
native of Queens, didn't grow up here, but he did die here.
SavoyBG
2018-12-01 05:49:58 UTC
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Post by DianeE
Anyhow...he never had a charted hit,
"Small Circle of Friends" bubbled under.
Bob Roman
2018-12-01 13:36:38 UTC
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Post by DianeE
According to Wikipedia, Phil Ochs never graduated. Is he still
considered an alumnus?
Neither did Thurber for that matter, but the school still claims him. Both left (and took off to New York) without finishing their final exams. Maybe Ochs was explicitly patterning himself after Thurber, just as Thurber had explicitly patterned himself after the painter George Bellows, who also left (and took off for New York) without finishing his final exams.

They do all fit Merriam-Webster's definition.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alumnus

--
BR
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