Discussion:
How "Strange Fruit" Killed Billie Holiday
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SavoyBG
2018-11-27 05:05:29 UTC
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https://progressive.org/dispatches/strange-fruit-caused-the-murder-of-billie-holiday-180220/?fbclid=IwAR15OgQ34dkOmJSE8bUvALkFAuB9gM59ldXxyi76abDc6kuL2YUrbon6OBw#.W_MGMsoPKn8.facebook
Roger Ford
2018-11-27 07:12:42 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
https://progressive.org/dispatches/strange-fruit-caused-the-murder-of-billie-holiday-180220/?fbclid=IwAR15OgQ34dkOmJSE8bUvALkFAuB9gM59ldXxyi76abDc6kuL2YUrbon6OBw#.W_MGMsoPKn8.facebook
---
I still remember actually seeing that "Chelsea At Nine" TV show in
1959. I'd never heard of her before that but I remember her
performance being totally hypnotic.

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "m" in my e-mail address (***@mmail.com).
Please delete same before responding.Thank you!
Will Dockery
2018-11-27 18:01:02 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
https://progressive.org/dispatches/strange-fruit-caused-the-murder-of-billie-holiday-180220/?fbclid=IwAR15OgQ34dkOmJSE8bUvALkFAuB9gM59ldXxyi76abDc6kuL2YUrbon6OBw#.W_MGMsoPKn8.facebook
---
I still remember actually seeing that "Chelsea At Nine" TV show in
1959. I'd never heard of her before that but I remember her
performance being totally hypnotic.
ROGER FORD
-----------------------
"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
Please delete same before responding.Thank you!
Fascinating... good find, Bruce.
DianeE
2018-11-28 23:11:50 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
https://progressive.org/dispatches/strange-fruit-caused-the-murder-of-billie-holiday-180220/?fbclid=IwAR15OgQ34dkOmJSE8bUvALkFAuB9gM59ldXxyi76abDc6kuL2YUrbon6OBw#.W_MGMsoPKn8.facebook
-------------
So you don't have to be a right-winger to spin conspiracy theories.
Good reminder.
Bob Roman
2018-11-28 23:56:50 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
https://progressive.org/dispatches/strange-fruit-caused-the-murder-of-billie-holiday-180220/?fbclid=IwAR15OgQ34dkOmJSE8bUvALkFAuB9gM59ldXxyi76abDc6kuL2YUrbon6OBw#.W_MGMsoPKn8.facebook
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So you don't have to be a right-winger to spin conspiracy theories.
Good reminder.
What part of the story do you not believe?

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/drug-war-the-hunting-of-billie-holiday-114298
http://www.openculture.com/2015/01/how-americas-first-drug-czar-waged-war-against-billie-holliday.html
https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/otm-man-who-declared-war-drugs

--
BR
Dennis C
2018-11-29 02:46:23 UTC
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I liked Judy Holliday better!!

" Trouble is a man" is just as hypnotic as anything that industrial strength diva ever did! And she never demanded the lights be dimmed and the busboys not rattle the cutlery, baby!!
DianeE
2018-11-29 02:51:11 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
https://progressive.org/dispatches/strange-fruit-caused-the-murder-of-billie-holiday-180220/?fbclid=IwAR15OgQ34dkOmJSE8bUvALkFAuB9gM59ldXxyi76abDc6kuL2YUrbon6OBw#.W_MGMsoPKn8.facebook
-------------
So you don't have to be a right-winger to spin conspiracy theories.
Good reminder.
What part of the story do you not believe?
-------------
The "murder" part.
Bob Roman
2018-11-29 03:51:30 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
What part of the story do you not believe?
-------------
The "murder" part.
The Progressive article includes the line "But then Anslinger’s men prevented hospital staff from administering any further methadone." That line includes a hyperlink that clicks through to a supporting Politico article.

The Politico provides this sequence of events:

"Narcotics agents were sent to her hospital bed and said they had found less than one-eighth of an ounce of heroin in a tinfoil envelope. They claimed it was hanging on a nail on the wall, six feet from the bottom of her bed -— a spot Billie was incapable of reaching. They summoned a grand jury to indict her, telling her that unless she disclosed her dealer, they would take her straight to prison. They confiscated her comic books, radio, record player, flowers, chocolates and magazines, handcuffed her to the bed and stationed two policemen at the door. They had orders to forbid any visitors from coming in without a written permit, and her friends were told there was no way to see her. Her friend Maely Dufty screamed at them that it was against the law to arrest somebody who was on the critical list. They explained that the problem had been solved: they had taken her off the critical list.

"So now, on top of the cirrhosis of the liver, Billie went into heroin withdrawal, alone."


It sounds pretty damned close to murder to me.

--
BR
DianeE
2018-11-30 14:09:09 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
What part of the story do you not believe?
-------------
The "murder" part.
The Progressive article includes the line "But then Anslinger’s men prevented hospital staff from administering any further methadone." That line includes a hyperlink that clicks through to a supporting Politico article.
"Narcotics agents were sent to her hospital bed and said they had found less than one-eighth of an ounce of heroin in a tinfoil envelope. They claimed it was hanging on a nail on the wall, six feet from the bottom of her bed -— a spot Billie was incapable of reaching. They summoned a grand jury to indict her, telling her that unless she disclosed her dealer, they would take her straight to prison. They confiscated her comic books, radio, record player, flowers, chocolates and magazines, handcuffed her to the bed and stationed two policemen at the door. They had orders to forbid any visitors from coming in without a written permit, and her friends were told there was no way to see her. Her friend Maely Dufty screamed at them that it was against the law to arrest somebody who was on the critical list. They explained that the problem had been solved: they had taken her off the critical list.
"So now, on top of the cirrhosis of the liver, Billie went into heroin withdrawal, alone."
It sounds pretty damned close to murder to me.
--
BR
------------
These were law enforcement officers, and there were no body cams back
then. If they wanted to kill her they could have done it much more
easily and efficiently with a bullet or a hot shot--and most certainly
gotten away with it--long before it got to this point. Sorry, Bob, I
don't buy this part of it.
Bob Roman
2018-11-30 14:56:29 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
"So now, on top of the cirrhosis of the liver, Billie went into heroin
withdrawal, alone."
It sounds pretty damned close to murder to me.
------------
These were law enforcement officers, and there were no body cams back
then. If they wanted to kill her they could have done it much more
easily and efficiently with a bullet or a hot shot--and most certainly
gotten away with it--long before it got to this point. Sorry, Bob, I
don't buy this part of it.
You are focusing on the question of whether they wanted her dead rather than whether they cared whether she lived. The law and legal ethics include the concept of "depraved indifference."

Or, more specifically, did they consider the information they were trying to coax from her more valuable than her life?

Compare it to a modern "enhanced interrogation" detention center, where sometimes people happen to die during questioning.

--
BR
SavoyBG
2018-11-30 15:17:39 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
"So now, on top of the cirrhosis of the liver, Billie went into heroin
withdrawal, alone."
It sounds pretty damned close to murder to me.
------------
These were law enforcement officers, and there were no body cams back
then. If they wanted to kill her they could have done it much more
easily and efficiently with a bullet or a hot shot--and most certainly
gotten away with it--long before it got to this point. Sorry, Bob, I
don't buy this part of it.
You are focusing on the question of whether they wanted her dead rather than whether they cared whether she lived. The law and legal ethics include the concept of "depraved indifference."
Or, more specifically, did they consider the information they were trying to coax from her more valuable than her life?
Compare it to a modern "enhanced interrogation" detention center, where sometimes people happen to die during questioning.
Depending upon the state the charge could vary from first degree murder to involuntary manslaughter on something like this.
Dennis C
2018-11-30 15:45:06 UTC
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I don't buy any of this totally fabricated passion play either!! Preposterous!!!

Another Bobby Roman psuedo intellecual rabbit hole here and if he wants to elaborate on even stranger fruit he needs to consider that image bouncing off his bathroom mirror, baby!
DianeE
2018-11-30 16:42:30 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
"So now, on top of the cirrhosis of the liver, Billie went into heroin
withdrawal, alone."
It sounds pretty damned close to murder to me.
------------
These were law enforcement officers, and there were no body cams back
then. If they wanted to kill her they could have done it much more
easily and efficiently with a bullet or a hot shot--and most certainly
gotten away with it--long before it got to this point. Sorry, Bob, I
don't buy this part of it.
You are focusing on the question of whether they wanted her dead rather than whether they cared whether she lived. The law and legal ethics include the concept of "depraved indifference."
Or, more specifically, did they consider the information they were trying to coax from her more valuable than her life?
Compare it to a modern "enhanced interrogation" detention center, where sometimes people happen to die during questioning.
--------------
Another thing that doesn't smell right to me is the involvement of the
Dufty family. As you probably know, William Dufty ghostwrote "Lady
Sings The Blues" (the autobiography, not the Motown movie), and as you
probably also know, it's a pack of lies starting with the very first
paragraph. Later he wrote a book called "Sugar Blues" (IIRC) in which
he simplistically and sensationally blamed sugar for all the ills of
mankind.

I'm no lawyer, but AFAIK a verdict of murder must include *intentional*
killing. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying these people were
justified in brutally mistreating her. As I said, my problem is with
calling it murder and suggesting that it was a conspiracy to do her in
for performing a Communist song. I'm skeptical.
SavoyBG
2018-11-30 16:49:19 UTC
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Post by DianeE
I'm no lawyer, but AFAIK a verdict of murder must include *intentional*
killing.
Nope. Phil Spector was convicted of murder. The California law says that if you recklessly mess around with something that a reasonable perso0n would know that can be deadly )like a loaded gun) that it's murder. No intent needed.
Will Dockery
2018-11-30 18:31:12 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
"So now, on top of the cirrhosis of the liver, Billie went into heroin
withdrawal, alone."
It sounds pretty damned close to murder to me.
------------
These were law enforcement officers, and there were no body cams back
then. If they wanted to kill her they could have done it much more
easily and efficiently with a bullet or a hot shot--and most certainly
gotten away with it--long before it got to this point. Sorry, Bob, I
don't buy this part of it.
You are focusing on the question of whether they wanted her dead rather than whether they cared whether she lived. The law and legal ethics include the concept of "depraved indifference."
Or, more specifically, did they consider the information they were trying to coax from her more valuable than her life?
Compare it to a modern "enhanced interrogation" detention center, where sometimes people happen to die during questioning.
--------------
Another thing that doesn't smell right to me is the involvement of the
Dufty family. As you probably know, William Dufty ghostwrote "Lady
Sings The Blues" (the autobiography, not the Motown movie), and as you
probably also know, it's a pack of lies starting with the very first
paragraph. Later he wrote a book called "Sugar Blues" (IIRC) in which
he simplistically and sensationally blamed sugar for all the ills of
mankind.
I'm no lawyer, but AFAIK a verdict of murder must include *intentional*
killing. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying these people were
justified in brutally mistreating her. As I said, my problem is with
calling it murder and suggesting that it was a conspiracy to do her in
for performing a Communist song. I'm skeptical.
Fascinating... similar theories went around about Phil Ochs.
DianeE
2018-12-01 00:46:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
"So now, on top of the cirrhosis of the liver, Billie went into heroin
withdrawal, alone."
It sounds pretty damned close to murder to me.
------------
These were law enforcement officers, and there were no body cams back
then. If they wanted to kill her they could have done it much more
easily and efficiently with a bullet or a hot shot--and most certainly
gotten away with it--long before it got to this point. Sorry, Bob, I
don't buy this part of it.
You are focusing on the question of whether they wanted her dead rather than whether they cared whether she lived. The law and legal ethics include the concept of "depraved indifference."
Or, more specifically, did they consider the information they were trying to coax from her more valuable than her life?
Compare it to a modern "enhanced interrogation" detention center, where sometimes people happen to die during questioning.
--------------
Another thing that doesn't smell right to me is the involvement of the
Dufty family. As you probably know, William Dufty ghostwrote "Lady
Sings The Blues" (the autobiography, not the Motown movie), and as you
probably also know, it's a pack of lies starting with the very first
paragraph. Later he wrote a book called "Sugar Blues" (IIRC) in which
he simplistically and sensationally blamed sugar for all the ills of
mankind.
I'm no lawyer, but AFAIK a verdict of murder must include *intentional*
killing. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying these people were
justified in brutally mistreating her. As I said, my problem is with
calling it murder and suggesting that it was a conspiracy to do her in
for performing a Communist song. I'm skeptical.
Fascinating... similar theories went around about Phil Ochs.
------------
I didn't know that, but I certainly thought of Marilyn Monroe. It does
seem that suicide (fast or slow) is so hard to accept that people will
go through all kinds of changes to deny that it happened.
BobbyM
2018-12-01 03:32:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger Ford
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
Post by Bob Roman
"So now, on top of the cirrhosis of the liver, Billie went into heroin
withdrawal, alone."
It sounds pretty damned close to murder to me.
------------
These were law enforcement officers, and there were no body cams back
then.  If they wanted to kill her they could have done it much more
easily and efficiently with a bullet or a hot shot--and most certainly
gotten away with it--long before it got to this point.  Sorry, Bob, I
don't buy this part of it.
You are focusing on the question of whether they wanted her dead
rather than whether they cared whether she lived. The law and legal
ethics include the concept of "depraved indifference."
Or, more specifically, did they consider the information they were
trying to coax from her more valuable than her life?
Compare it to a modern "enhanced interrogation" detention center,
where sometimes people happen to die during questioning.
--------------
Another thing that doesn't smell right to me is the involvement of the
Dufty family.  As you probably know, William Dufty ghostwrote "Lady
Sings The Blues" (the autobiography, not the Motown movie), and as you
probably also know, it's a pack of lies starting with the very first
paragraph.  Later he wrote a book called "Sugar Blues" (IIRC) in which
he simplistically and sensationally blamed sugar for all the ills of
mankind.
I'm no lawyer, but AFAIK a verdict of murder must include *intentional*
killing.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying these people were
justified in brutally mistreating her.  As I said, my problem is with
calling it murder and suggesting that it was a conspiracy to do her in
for performing a Communist song.  I'm skeptical.
Fascinating... similar theories went around about Phil Ochs.
------------
I didn't know that, but I certainly thought of Marilyn Monroe.  It does
seem that suicide (fast or slow) is so hard to accept that people will
go through all kinds of changes to deny that it happened.
I wouldn't pay much attention to Dockery's conspiracy theories. First,
he practically worships at the feet of Ochs. While it's true that the
fBI had a file on him, which protest singer or activist did they not
have a file on? More importantly, it's well known that Ochs' vocal
cords had been permanently damaged when he had been robbed & strangled a
few years earlier, which heightened his depression and drinking & he
often spoke of committing suicide.

Dean F.
2018-11-29 04:27:21 UTC
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"Strange Fruit" didn't kill her; institutional racism did.
SavoyBG
2018-11-29 04:34:13 UTC
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Post by Dean F.
"Strange Fruit" didn't kill her; institutional racism did.
That song accelerated it though.
DianeE
2018-11-30 16:47:45 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Dean F.
"Strange Fruit" didn't kill her; institutional racism did.
That song accelerated it though.
--------------
She died from her disease, guys. Nobody held her down and stuck a
needle in her arm. You don't have to be black to die from drug
abuse--right, Elvis?
Bob Roman
2018-11-30 17:04:54 UTC
Reply
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Dean F.
"Strange Fruit" didn't kill her; institutional racism did.
That song accelerated it though.
--------------
She died from her disease, guys. Nobody held her down and stuck a
needle in her arm. You don't have to be black to die from drug
abuse--right, Elvis?
She died because treatment for her disease, by order, was denied her. The facts are settled. The question is interpretation.

--
BR
DianeE
2018-12-01 01:55:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Dean F.
"Strange Fruit" didn't kill her; institutional racism did.
That song accelerated it though.
--------------
She died from her disease, guys. Nobody held her down and stuck a
needle in her arm. You don't have to be black to die from drug
abuse--right, Elvis?
She died because treatment for her disease, by order, was denied her. The facts are settled. The question is interpretation.
--
BR
-----------
If Mrs. Dufty is the one reporting "the facts" then I'm very skeptical
of "the facts."

Dying from heroin withdrawal is possible, but rare.

In the 1950s there were no treatments for cirrhosis of the liver, and
liver transplants weren't even dreamed of. The idea that she died from
withdrawal, rather than from complications of cirrhosis, is a stretch.
Okay, it put additional stress on her body, but she would have died
anyhow.
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