Discussion:
Pat Boone vs. Little Richard?
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Will Dockery
2018-09-14 19:11:49 UTC
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True, and add to that the fact that Pendragon Judge talent on the basis of commercial success.
Pat Boone sold more records, so he must be more talented, by Pendragon's logic.
There's a world of difference between having been one of the most successful recording artists of all time and ... "performing" once a week at the local bar on open mic night.
In terms of vocal talent, Pat Boone could sing circles around you.
No argumeent, there.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
Thanks Robert -- I just listened and lost my dinner.
If your taste in food is as bland as your taste in music, Michael, you probably regurgitated some lightly toasted white bread and milk.
Well, Michael has often placed Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard tunes as "better" than the originals.
I find Little Richard's voice almost as revolting as Bob Dylan's. Neither of these abominations appear on the 25,000+ songs in my i-library.
Pat Boone, otoh, has one of the smoothest voices I've ever heard. His records are always a pleasure to listen to.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ

vs

So Will, have you done the side-by-side comparison?
Pat Boone outsings Little Richard, has a better band, a better arrangement, and one of the greatest sax breaks in the history of rock 'n' roll.
Agree?
Okay, this is a comparison between Pat Boone and Little Richard?

Not having checked the link yet, I was expecting it to be Tiny Tim vs. Jerry Lee Lewis...

I will definitely have a listen.
Bob Roman
2018-09-14 20:45:03 UTC
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We don't drop our shit off at your house.

--
BR
Will Dockery
2018-09-23 21:07:07 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
We don't drop our shit off at your house.
--
BR
Okay, point taken.
Will Dockery
2018-09-29 16:57:18 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
We don't drop our shit off at your house.
--
BR
Tanks for that,, but this is a good place let Michael Pendragon, who you call "shit" out of the blue, give his side of the story, which he recently did for me and my fellow poets:

===========================================================

Michael Pendragon wrote:
Okay, here's the full story:

I didn't fit in the 50s group. The regulars were strictly r&b fans. They hated pop/standards, and claimed that rock 'n' roll was really just another name for r&b. I disagreed on both counts, so we ended up fighting ... a lot. I made a lot of enemies, of which the Dave Marsh episode was a direct result.

One of the 50s group members was a friend (fanboy) of Dave Marsh (he liked to boast about how he'd once spent a night sleeping on Marsh's couch). He and I did not get along. Another of the group's members (who disliked me even more) goaded him into sending a handful of excerpted passages from my posts to Marsh. So he sent Marsh an email basically saying "Hey Dave, there's this troll in our newsgroup who's giving everybody a hard time. Here are some examples of the b.s. he's been spreading around. Would you care to give your opinion on it?"

I don't know which specific quotes he sent, but the subject of them is apparent from Marsh's reply: basically that I prefer *white* cover records over *black* originals. (This was a major point of contention at the 50s group.)

For me, it wasn't a matter of "black" or "white"; it was a matter of "r&b" and "pop." The r&b originals have a slower beat than the pop covers. Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard's records have a *very* different sound. Not because Pat Boone is white, but because Pat Boone sings in the traditional pop style to a pop-rock arrangement.

The 50s group claimed that this was a "racist" stance, and that the record industry only made covers as an attempt to keep white teens from listening to black musicians (which is, IMO, total b.s.). We argued over this incessantly, for years, and I'm really sick to death of the subject.

As to "color" -- I have always maintained that music (sound waves) is colorless. I often had no idea what race a singer was when I put their old 78s on the turntable. Nor did I ever give it much thought at the time. I was reacting to the voice, not a skin color I had no means of knowing.

I'm a big fan of many African-American artists. My favorites include Nat "King" Cole, Leslie Uggams, Johnny Mathis, Lena Horne, Eartha Kitt, Bill Kenny/The Ink Spots, Fats Waller, Nancy Wilson, Sarah Vaughan, The Mills Brothers, Dinah Washington, Sammy Davis Jr., Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Brook Benton, The Platters, Billie Holiday, Billy Eckstine, Louis Jordan, etc. According to one very vocal member of the group, this meant nothing because all of these artists had "sold out to whitey" to one degree or another.

I doubt anything I wrote in praise of these artists had been forwarded to Marsh. More likely he received choice quotes from me damning the music of Little Richard, Howlin' Wolf, and Laverne Baker (who I have a personal vendetta against for her having destroyed Georgia Gibbs' career).

Marsh never attempted to contact me, and we have never exchanged any communications of any sort. He based his opinion on a handful of out of context quotes like "Laverne Baker was a no-talent p.o.s. who couldn't handle the fact that Georgia Gibbs' covers were 1,000 times better than her versions." This is just a random quote paraphrased from memory -- I wrote a lot of quotes to this extent, and Marsh's friend would have been able to cherry pick some real lulus.

So Marsh wrote back what his fanboy friend wanted to hear.

Thus ended the Dave Marsh episode.
========================================================

And so it goes.
Jim Colegrove
2018-09-29 18:59:52 UTC
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On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 09:57:18 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Bob Roman
We don't drop our shit off at your house.
--
BR
===========================================================
I didn't fit in the 50s group. The regulars were strictly r&b fans. They hated pop/standards, and claimed that rock 'n' roll was really just another name for r&b. I disagreed on both counts, so we ended up fighting ... a lot. I made a lot of enemies, of which the Dave Marsh episode was a direct result.
One of the 50s group members was a friend (fanboy) of Dave Marsh (he liked to boast about how he'd once spent a night sleeping on Marsh's couch). He and I did not get along. Another of the group's members (who disliked me even more) goaded him into sending a handful of excerpted passages from my posts to Marsh. So he sent Marsh an email basically saying "Hey Dave, there's this troll in our newsgroup who's giving everybody a hard time. Here are some examples of the b.s. he's been spreading around. Would you care to give your opinion on it?"
I don't know which specific quotes he sent, but the subject of them is apparent from Marsh's reply: basically that I prefer *white* cover records over *black* originals. (This was a major point of contention at the 50s group.)
For me, it wasn't a matter of "black" or "white"; it was a matter of "r&b" and "pop." The r&b originals have a slower beat than the pop covers. Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard's records have a *very* different sound. Not because Pat Boone is white, but because Pat Boone sings in the traditional pop style to a pop-rock arrangement.
The 50s group claimed that this was a "racist" stance, and that the record industry only made covers as an attempt to keep white teens from listening to black musicians (which is, IMO, total b.s.). We argued over this incessantly, for years, and I'm really sick to death of the subject.
As to "color" -- I have always maintained that music (sound waves) is colorless. I often had no idea what race a singer was when I put their old 78s on the turntable. Nor did I ever give it much thought at the time. I was reacting to the voice, not a skin color I had no means of knowing.
I'm a big fan of many African-American artists. My favorites include Nat "King" Cole, Leslie Uggams, Johnny Mathis, Lena Horne, Eartha Kitt, Bill Kenny/The Ink Spots, Fats Waller, Nancy Wilson, Sarah Vaughan, The Mills Brothers, Dinah Washington, Sammy Davis Jr., Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Brook Benton, The Platters, Billie Holiday, Billy Eckstine, Louis Jordan, etc. According to one very vocal member of the group, this meant nothing because all of these artists had "sold out to whitey" to one degree or another.
I doubt anything I wrote in praise of these artists had been forwarded to Marsh. More likely he received choice quotes from me damning the music of Little Richard, Howlin' Wolf, and Laverne Baker (who I have a personal vendetta against for her having destroyed Georgia Gibbs' career).
Marsh never attempted to contact me, and we have never exchanged any communications of any sort. He based his opinion on a handful of out of context quotes like "Laverne Baker was a no-talent p.o.s. who couldn't handle the fact that Georgia Gibbs' covers were 1,000 times better than her versions." This is just a random quote paraphrased from memory -- I wrote a lot of quotes to this extent, and Marsh's friend would have been able to cherry pick some real lulus.
So Marsh wrote back what his fanboy friend wanted to hear.
Thus ended the Dave Marsh episode.
========================================================
And so it goes.
Cue fiddles. Bring the crying towels. So sad.
Thanks so much for his side of the story. Let's beat the shit out of
this dead and rotting horse a little more, shall we?
Will Dockery
2018-09-30 03:10:49 UTC
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Post by Jim Colegrove
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 09:57:18 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Bob Roman
We don't drop our shit off at your house.
--
BR
===========================================================
I didn't fit in the 50s group. The regulars were strictly r&b fans. They hated pop/standards, and claimed that rock 'n' roll was really just another name for r&b. I disagreed on both counts, so we ended up fighting ... a lot. I made a lot of enemies, of which the Dave Marsh episode was a direct result.
One of the 50s group members was a friend (fanboy) of Dave Marsh (he liked to boast about how he'd once spent a night sleeping on Marsh's couch). He and I did not get along. Another of the group's members (who disliked me even more) goaded him into sending a handful of excerpted passages from my posts to Marsh. So he sent Marsh an email basically saying "Hey Dave, there's this troll in our newsgroup who's giving everybody a hard time. Here are some examples of the b.s. he's been spreading around. Would you care to give your opinion on it?"
I don't know which specific quotes he sent, but the subject of them is apparent from Marsh's reply: basically that I prefer *white* cover records over *black* originals. (This was a major point of contention at the 50s group.)
For me, it wasn't a matter of "black" or "white"; it was a matter of "r&b" and "pop." The r&b originals have a slower beat than the pop covers. Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard's records have a *very* different sound. Not because Pat Boone is white, but because Pat Boone sings in the traditional pop style to a pop-rock arrangement.
The 50s group claimed that this was a "racist" stance, and that the record industry only made covers as an attempt to keep white teens from listening to black musicians (which is, IMO, total b.s.). We argued over this incessantly, for years, and I'm really sick to death of the subject.
As to "color" -- I have always maintained that music (sound waves) is colorless. I often had no idea what race a singer was when I put their old 78s on the turntable. Nor did I ever give it much thought at the time. I was reacting to the voice, not a skin color I had no means of knowing.
I'm a big fan of many African-American artists. My favorites include Nat "King" Cole, Leslie Uggams, Johnny Mathis, Lena Horne, Eartha Kitt, Bill Kenny/The Ink Spots, Fats Waller, Nancy Wilson, Sarah Vaughan, The Mills Brothers, Dinah Washington, Sammy Davis Jr., Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Brook Benton, The Platters, Billie Holiday, Billy Eckstine, Louis Jordan, etc. According to one very vocal member of the group, this meant nothing because all of these artists had "sold out to whitey" to one degree or another.
I doubt anything I wrote in praise of these artists had been forwarded to Marsh. More likely he received choice quotes from me damning the music of Little Richard, Howlin' Wolf, and Laverne Baker (who I have a personal vendetta against for her having destroyed Georgia Gibbs' career).
Marsh never attempted to contact me, and we have never exchanged any communications of any sort. He based his opinion on a handful of out of context quotes like "Laverne Baker was a no-talent p.o.s. who couldn't handle the fact that Georgia Gibbs' covers were 1,000 times better than her versions." This is just a random quote paraphrased from memory -- I wrote a lot of quotes to this extent, and Marsh's friend would have been able to cherry pick some real lulus.
So Marsh wrote back what his fanboy friend wanted to hear.
Thus ended the Dave Marsh episode.
========================================================
And so it goes.
Cue fiddles. Bring the crying towels. So sad.
Thanks so much for his side of the story. Let's beat the shit out of
this dead and rotting horse a little more, shall we?
It is far from dead in some quarters...
SavoyBG
2018-09-30 03:25:21 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
It is far from dead in some quarters...
Do you also go to the Holocaust survivor group and post sections of Mein Kampf?
Jim Colegrove
2018-09-30 05:20:44 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Will Dockery
It is far from dead in some quarters...
Do you also go to the Holocaust survivor group and post sections of Mein Kampf?
Either that or photos of Nazi uniforms.
Will Dockery
2018-10-20 22:50:57 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Do you also go to the Holocaust survivor group and post sections of Mein Kampf?
You're comparing Michael Pendragon with Hitler?!?

Did Pen really get that bad over here?
BobbyM
2018-09-30 04:59:11 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Post by Jim Colegrove
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 09:57:18 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Bob Roman
We don't drop our shit off at your house.
--
BR
===========================================================
I didn't fit in the 50s group. The regulars were strictly r&b fans. They hated pop/standards, and claimed that rock 'n' roll was really just another name for r&b. I disagreed on both counts, so we ended up fighting ... a lot. I made a lot of enemies, of which the Dave Marsh episode was a direct result.
One of the 50s group members was a friend (fanboy) of Dave Marsh (he liked to boast about how he'd once spent a night sleeping on Marsh's couch). He and I did not get along. Another of the group's members (who disliked me even more) goaded him into sending a handful of excerpted passages from my posts to Marsh. So he sent Marsh an email basically saying "Hey Dave, there's this troll in our newsgroup who's giving everybody a hard time. Here are some examples of the b.s. he's been spreading around. Would you care to give your opinion on it?"
I don't know which specific quotes he sent, but the subject of them is apparent from Marsh's reply: basically that I prefer *white* cover records over *black* originals. (This was a major point of contention at the 50s group.)
For me, it wasn't a matter of "black" or "white"; it was a matter of "r&b" and "pop." The r&b originals have a slower beat than the pop covers. Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard's records have a *very* different sound. Not because Pat Boone is white, but because Pat Boone sings in the traditional pop style to a pop-rock arrangement.
The 50s group claimed that this was a "racist" stance, and that the record industry only made covers as an attempt to keep white teens from listening to black musicians (which is, IMO, total b.s.). We argued over this incessantly, for years, and I'm really sick to death of the subject.
As to "color" -- I have always maintained that music (sound waves) is colorless. I often had no idea what race a singer was when I put their old 78s on the turntable. Nor did I ever give it much thought at the time. I was reacting to the voice, not a skin color I had no means of knowing.
I'm a big fan of many African-American artists. My favorites include Nat "King" Cole, Leslie Uggams, Johnny Mathis, Lena Horne, Eartha Kitt, Bill Kenny/The Ink Spots, Fats Waller, Nancy Wilson, Sarah Vaughan, The Mills Brothers, Dinah Washington, Sammy Davis Jr., Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Brook Benton, The Platters, Billie Holiday, Billy Eckstine, Louis Jordan, etc. According to one very vocal member of the group, this meant nothing because all of these artists had "sold out to whitey" to one degree or another.
I doubt anything I wrote in praise of these artists had been forwarded to Marsh. More likely he received choice quotes from me damning the music of Little Richard, Howlin' Wolf, and Laverne Baker (who I have a personal vendetta against for her having destroyed Georgia Gibbs' career).
Marsh never attempted to contact me, and we have never exchanged any communications of any sort. He based his opinion on a handful of out of context quotes like "Laverne Baker was a no-talent p.o.s. who couldn't handle the fact that Georgia Gibbs' covers were 1,000 times better than her versions." This is just a random quote paraphrased from memory -- I wrote a lot of quotes to this extent, and Marsh's friend would have been able to cherry pick some real lulus.
So Marsh wrote back what his fanboy friend wanted to hear.
Thus ended the Dave Marsh episode.
========================================================
And so it goes.
Cue fiddles. Bring the crying towels. So sad.
Thanks so much for his side of the story. Let's beat the shit out of
this dead and rotting horse a little more, shall we?
It is far from dead in some quarters...
Then post to those "quarters" instead of this quarter. You can post all
day long in the 70s group on whatever subject & no one will object,
unless Uni rises from whatever grave he's in.
xpenenyx
2018-09-30 19:05:15 UTC
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On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 09:57:18 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
For me, it wasn't a matter of "black" or "white"; it was a matter of "r&b" and "pop." The r&b originals have a slower beat than the pop covers. Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard's records have a *very* different sound. Not because Pat Boone is white, but because Pat Boone sings in the traditional pop style to a pop-rock arrangement.
I wonder how Boone being a straight Christian conservation would react
to all the virtual fellating you gave him over these many years
Will Dockery
2018-09-30 20:38:11 UTC
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Post by Jim Colegrove
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 09:57:18 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
For me, it wasn't a matter of "black" or "white"; it was a matter of "r&b" and "pop." The r&b originals have a slower beat than the pop covers. Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard's records have a *very* different sound. Not because Pat Boone is white, but because Pat Boone sings in the traditional pop style to a pop-rock arrangement.
I wonder how Boone being a straight Christian conservation would react
to all the virtual fellating you gave him over these many years
You misquoted me, you know, right?

You know I didn't write the above quoted text, or do you?
DianeE
2018-10-01 18:22:36 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
Post by Jim Colegrove
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 09:57:18 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
For me, it wasn't a matter of "black" or "white"; it was a matter of "r&b" and "pop." The r&b originals have a slower beat than the pop covers. Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard's records have a *very* different sound. Not because Pat Boone is white, but because Pat Boone sings in the traditional pop style to a pop-rock arrangement.
I wonder how Boone being a straight Christian conservation would react
to all the virtual fellating you gave him over these many years
You misquoted me, you know, right?
You know I didn't write the above quoted text, or do you?
--------------
Since "Pendragon" has used a few other names here, such as
"Scarlotti" and "Charles Rogan," you will forgive Doug if he thinks you
are yet another sock puppet.

We had quite enough of him when he was here. I and some others who use
newsreaders were able to killfile him. The Google contingent wasted a
good part of their lives arguing with him.

In other words, please cease and desist from reposting anything he has
written, here or anywhere else. We don't care what he thinks or says,
as long as he doesn't do it here.
Will Dockery
2018-10-02 20:04:25 UTC
Reply
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Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Jim Colegrove
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 09:57:18 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
For me, it wasn't a matter of "black" or "white"; it was a matter of "r&b" and "pop." The r&b originals have a slower beat than the pop covers. Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard's records have a *very* different sound. Not because Pat Boone is white, but because Pat Boone sings in the traditional pop style to a pop-rock arrangement.
I wonder how Boone being a straight Christian conservation would react
to all the virtual fellating you gave him over these many years
You misquoted me, you know, right?
You know I didn't write the above quoted text, or do you?
--------------
Since "Pendragon" has used a few other names here, such as
"Scarlotti" and "Charles Rogan," you will forgive Doug if he thinks you
are yet another sock puppet.
We had quite enough of him when he was here. I and some others who use
newsreaders were able to killfile him. The Google contingent wasted a
good part of their lives arguing with him.
In other words, please cease and desist from reposting anything he has
written, here or anywhere else. We don't care what he thinks or says,
as long as he doesn't do it here.
Hello, Diane... I certainly do understand your point...
xpenenyx
2018-09-30 19:20:11 UTC
Reply
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On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 09:57:18 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
I'm a big fan of many African-American artists. My favorites include Nat "King" Cole, Leslie Uggams, Johnny Mathis, Lena Horne, Eartha Kitt, Bill Kenny/The Ink Spots,
Fats Waller, Nancy Wilson, Sarah Vaughan, The Mills Brothers, Dinah Washington, Sammy Davis Jr., Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Brook Benton, The Platters,
Billie Holiday, Billy Eckstine, Louis Jordan, etc. According to one very vocal member of the group, this meant nothing because all of these artists had "sold out to whitey"
to one degree or another.
No, it was that they all sounded White, some to a greater degree than
others. OTOH we know you like Black music like you like your coffee,
mostly cream and sugar.
xpenenyx
2018-09-30 19:46:24 UTC
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On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 09:57:18 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
I doubt anything I wrote in praise of these artists had been forwarded to Marsh. More likely he received choice quotes from me damning the music of Little Richard, Howlin' Wolf, and Laverne Baker (who I have a personal vendetta against for her having destroyed Georgia Gibbs' career).
Gibbs's career was basically over when she recorded Dance With Me
Henry, Tweedle Dee. The only Top Twenty hits she had prior were in the
early 50s. She was dinosaur from another era. The only thing missing
from her renditions of TD, DWMH was the black face.
Bob Roman
2018-10-01 00:48:45 UTC
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Post by Will Dockery
I didn't fit in the 50s group.
If he felt that way, it's good that he discovered it early. He stayed here for only 14 years. Any longer would have been a waste of his time.

--
BR
Will Dockery
2018-10-04 20:07:47 UTC
Reply
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Post by Bob Roman
Post by Will Dockery
I didn't fit in the 50s group.
If he felt that way, it's good that he discovered it early. He stayed here for only 14 years. Any longer would have been a waste of his time.
--
BR
Post by Will Dockery
No, if I wanted to go with the conventional wisdom on "Little Richard vs. Pat Boone", I could simply quote Dave Marsh or any other established rock critic.
I am approaching the Little Richard vs. Pat Boone comparison from a fresh approach, without bias, Pendragon.
Let's add "bias" to the
Wrong again, old son... I understand that word and thousands of others perfectly fine.
Post by Bob Roman
http://youtu.be/Sm39Es2cYAk
vs
http://youtu.be/F13JNjpNW6c
The only thing that matters in an *unbiased* opinion is what's coming out of your speakers.
If you *want* to be biased in your appraisal, read music critics and ask others what they think.
No, it is my own bias that I'm attempting to overcome, since, in the Randian ethic, I side with the creator rather than to second-hander, usually as a matter of course.
Bob Roman
2018-10-05 21:06:54 UTC
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Understood, but...
Sigh. There's always a "but"

--
BR
Will Dockery
2018-10-08 16:47:39 UTC
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Post by Bob Roman
Understood, but...
Sigh. There's always a "but"
--
BR
I wouldn't say always... often, though.

:)
xpenenyx
2018-10-10 16:16:16 UTC
Reply
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On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:07:47 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Why is the above header here?
SavoyBG
2018-10-10 16:30:55 UTC
Reply
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Post by xpenenyx
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:07:47 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Why is the above header here?
Because Dockery copied a post from the poetry group.
Will Dockery
2018-10-21 19:44:03 UTC
Reply
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Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Jim Colegrove
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 09:57:18 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
For me, it wasn't a matter of "black" or "white"; it was a matter of
"r&b" and "pop." The r&b originals have a slower beat than the pop
covers. Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard's records have a *very*
different sound. Not because Pat Boone is white, but because Pat Boone
sings in the traditional pop style to a pop-rock arrangement.
I wonder how Boone being a straight Christian conservation would react
to all the virtual fellating you gave him over these many years
You misquoted me, you know, right?
You know I didn't write the above quoted text, or do you?
--------------
Since "Pendragon" has used a few other names here, such as
"Scarlotti" and "Charles Rogan," you will forgive Doug if he thinks you
are yet another sock puppet.
We had quite enough of him when he was here. I and some others who use
newsreaders were able to killfile him. The Google contingent wasted a
good part of their lives arguing with him.
In other words, please cease and desist from reposting anything he has
written, here or anywhere else. We don't care what he thinks or says,
as long as he doesn't do it here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pendragon, this is an example of how the regulars at the 1950s music group
feel about you... 15 years after you left the group.
So... yes, I do think you understand the situation.
:)
I go with the Georgia Boy Little Richard...…………...
Agreed... I tried to judge without bias to the creator (Little Richard) over the second-hander (Pat Boone), but, as pure raw energy Rock-N-Roll, Richard runs circles around Pat.
Mark Dintenfass
2018-10-21 20:42:07 UTC
Reply
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Post by Will Dockery
:)
I go with the Georgia Boy Little Richard...ŠŠŠŠ...
Agreed... I tried to judge without bias to the creator (Little Richard) over
the second-hander (Pat Boone), but, as pure raw energy Rock-N-Roll, Richard runs circles around Pat.
Glad we finally got that settled.
--
--md
_________
Remove xx's from address to reply
Will Dockery
2018-10-22 03:04:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by Will Dockery
:)
I go with the Georgia Boy Little Richard...ŠŠŠŠ...
Agreed... I tried to judge without bias to the creator (Little Richard) over
the second-hander (Pat Boone), but, as pure raw energy Rock-N-Roll, Richard runs circles around Pat.
Glad we finally got that settled.
--
--md
_________
Remove xx's from address to reply
Indeed... logic was the key, and support for the creator, above the second-handers.

:)
Ken Whiton
2018-10-22 08:43:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
*-* On Sun, 21 Oct 2018, at 12:44:03 -0700 (PDT),
*-* In Article <0ec08c74-673a-4093-baa9-***@googlegroups.com>,
*-* Will Dockery wrote
*-* About Re: Pat Boone vs. Little Richard?
[ ... ]
Post by Will Dockery
Post by DianeE
Since "Pendragon" has used a few other names here, such as
"Scarlotti" and "Charles Rogan," you will forgive Doug if he
thinks you are yet another sock puppet.
We had quite enough of him when he was here. I and some others
who use newsreaders were able to killfile him. The Google
contingent wasted a good part of their lives arguing with him.
In other words, please cease and desist from reposting anything
he has written, here or anywhere else. We don't care what he
thinks or says, as long as he doesn't do it here.
Pendragon, this is an example of how the regulars at the 1950s
music group feel about you... 15 years after you left the group.
We *WISH* it had been 15 years since we had to put up with him,
but it's actually been only about two years and two months, so
memories of him are still too fresh. :-(

Ken Whiton
--
FIDO: 1:132/152
InterNet: ***@surfglobal.net.INVAL (remove the obvious to reply)
Will Dockery
2018-10-22 18:47:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"Ken Whiton" wrote in message news:***@news3.newsguy.com...

*-* On Sun, 21 Oct 2018, at 12:44:03 -0700 (PDT),
*-* In Article <0ec08c74-673a-4093-baa9-***@googlegroups.com>,
*-* Will Dockery wrote
*-* About Re: Pat Boone vs. Little Richard?
[ ... ]
Post by Will Dockery
Post by DianeE
Since "Pendragon" has used a few other names here, such as
"Scarlotti" and "Charles Rogan," you will forgive Doug if he
thinks you are yet another sock puppet.
We had quite enough of him when he was here. I and some others
who use newsreaders were able to killfile him. The Google
contingent wasted a good part of their lives arguing with him.
In other words, please cease and desist from reposting anything
he has written, here or anywhere else. We don't care what he
thinks or says, as long as he doesn't do it here.
Pendragon, this is an example of how the regulars at the 1950s
music group feel about you... 15 years after you left the group.
We *WISH* it had been 15 years since we had to put up with him,
but it's actually been only about two years and two months, so
memories of him are still too fresh. :-(

Ken Whiton
--
FIDO: 1:132/152
InterNet: ***@surfglobal.net.INVAL (remove the obvious to reply)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, I wasn't aware you only managed to drive Pendragon away just two years
ago... right around the time he started posting in our poetry group.
Bob Roman
2018-10-23 02:21:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Oh, I wasn't aware you only managed to drive Pendragon away just two years
ago... right around the time he started posting in our poetry group.
If you plan to stay here, feel free to talk about music from 1949 to 1963.

--
BR
DianeE
2018-10-23 11:23:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Will Dockery
Oh, I wasn't aware you only managed to drive Pendragon away just two years
ago... right around the time he started posting in our poetry group.
If you plan to stay here, feel free to talk about music from 1949 to 1963.
--
BR
------------
Precisely!
Will Dockery
2018-10-23 20:15:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Will Dockery
Oh, I wasn't aware you only managed to drive Pendragon away just two years
ago... right around the time he started posting in our poetry group.
If you plan to stay here, feel free to talk about music from 1949 to 1963.
--
BR
------------
Precisely!
Of course, Pat Boone and Little Richard are both circa 1955-1960, right?

:)
xpenenyx
2018-10-29 20:46:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 13:15:19 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Will Dockery
Oh, I wasn't aware you only managed to drive Pendragon away just two years
ago... right around the time he started posting in our poetry group.
If you plan to stay here, feel free to talk about music from 1949 to 1963.
--
BR
------------
Precisely!
Of course, Pat Boone and Little Richard are both circa 1955-1960, right?
Of course, no one here is interested in Pat Boone.
Post by Will Dockery
:)
Your buddy Scarlotti was welcome to his opinion but not to his own
facts. He seamed to think that Boone's covers were superior to the
originals since his outsold them. Ignoring that the system was rigged
against the originals.

Eventually the black records got better distribution and play they
were one that were bought. As your boy declared "the people here. The
people choose."

Scarlatina swears up and down that it was his choice to make the
change to ballads which he was more suited. The fact is that what
Randy Wood told him to sing he sang.

Scarlotti is one of those people that thinks Benny Goodman was "The
King of Swing," Frankie Laine was "Mr. Rhythm" and Elvis Presley was
"The King of Rock and Roll" lol
Dean F.
2018-09-15 06:42:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
Will Dockery
2018-09-15 10:56:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dean F.
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
I suppose that I should Google the archives of this group to find those answers?
xpenenyx
2018-09-19 16:12:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 23:42:10 -0700 (PDT), "Dean F."
Post by Dean F.
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
The Will Dockery name he is using should adequately answer that
question!
Will Dockery
2018-09-19 18:19:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by xpenenyx
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 23:42:10 -0700 (PDT), "Dean F."
Post by Dean F.
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
The Will Dockery name he is using should adequately answer that
question!
It is simply a current discussion that I looked for some feedback on, here.

If it doesn't interest you, your easiest choisce is to ignore the post.

:)
Dean F.
2018-09-20 05:21:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
If it doesn't interest you, your easiest choisce is to ignore the post.
Along with all the other years-old discussions you've brought back from the dead?
xpenenyx
2018-09-20 13:00:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:19:54 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by xpenenyx
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 23:42:10 -0700 (PDT), "Dean F."
Post by Dean F.
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
The Will Dockery name he is using should adequately answer that
question!
It is simply a current discussion that I looked for some feedback on, here.
If it doesn't interest you, your easiest choisce is to ignore the post.
The Dockery brothers were White racist plantation owners that
exploited poor Blacks. Pat Boone was a White singer that exploited
black music which is basically all that he is remembered for.

Boone's singing of black music was essentially ministerial show
quality minus the blackface.

Go troll elsewhere.
Post by Will Dockery
:)
t***@iwvisp.com
2018-09-20 16:08:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by xpenenyx
On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:19:54 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by xpenenyx
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 23:42:10 -0700 (PDT), "Dean F."
Post by Dean F.
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
The Will Dockery name he is using should adequately answer that
question!
It is simply a current discussion that I looked for some feedback on, here.
If it doesn't interest you, your easiest choisce is to ignore the post.
The Dockery brothers were White racist plantation owners that
exploited poor Blacks. Pat Boone was a White singer that exploited
black music which is basically all that he is remembered for.
Boone's singing of black music was essentially ministerial show
quality minus the blackface.
Go troll elsewhere.
Post by Will Dockery
:)
I’m not supporting the annoying Dockery in any way but to be clear, Fats did quite well on his own. And even better thanks to Boone.

From http://www.pophistorydig.com/topics/tag/fats-domino-pat-boone/

Domino’s first pop hit and first “crossover” success — as R&B songs moving to the mainstream white pop charts were termed in those days – came in July 1955. The song’s title was “Ain’t That A Shame.” It was a Top Ten pop hit; the first hard-rocking black record to cross over. However, its rise on the pop charts for Domino came in a round about way. Fats had recorded “Ain’t That A Shame” at an earlier 1955 studio session in Los Angeles.
However, within a week of Domino’s initial recording, a white movie star named Pat Boone also recorded a version of the same song. Boone, then something of heart throb among teen girls because of his movies, was not then a successful singer, although he had cut one recording that did poorly a year earlier. Still, Boone’s managers thought he might have some success in that arena given his film exposure.
In any case, Boone’s version of the Domino song charted in July, and soon became a No. 1 hit – his first. Boone’s version of “Ain’t That A Shame” stayed in the Top 40 for 20 weeks. And according to one source, that set the stage for the early part of Boone’s singing career, which then focused on covering R&B songs for the white American market.
Yet the Boone version of “Ain’t That A Shame” – arriving on the pop charts first – apparently didn’t hurt Domino’s version, which hit the pop charts shortly after Boone’s did, in mid-July 1955, and rose to No 10. Domino’s version — which also hit No.1 on the R&B chart — stayed in the Top 40 for 13 weeks. However, between the two versions, since Domino and Bartholomew were the authors of the song and collected publisher’s fees, the two had a pretty good payday thanks in part to Boone’s successful No. 1 version, as well as their own. Domino, all in good fun, reportedly complimented Boone on his cover of the song. And on one later occasion, at a concert where Domino invited Boone on stage, Domino showed off a big gold ring he was wearing, making the comment: “Pat Boone bought me this ring.”

Ray Arthur
SavoyBG
2018-09-20 17:23:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Post by xpenenyx
On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:19:54 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by xpenenyx
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 23:42:10 -0700 (PDT), "Dean F."
Post by Dean F.
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
The Will Dockery name he is using should adequately answer that
question!
It is simply a current discussion that I looked for some feedback on, here.
If it doesn't interest you, your easiest choisce is to ignore the post.
The Dockery brothers were White racist plantation owners that
exploited poor Blacks. Pat Boone was a White singer that exploited
black music which is basically all that he is remembered for.
Boone's singing of black music was essentially ministerial show
quality minus the blackface.
Go troll elsewhere.
Post by Will Dockery
:)
I’m not supporting the annoying Dockery in any way but to be clear, Fats did quite well on his own. And even better thanks to Boone.
From http://www.pophistorydig.com/topics/tag/fats-domino-pat-boone/
Domino’s first pop hit and first “crossover” success — as R&B songs moving to the mainstream white pop charts were termed in those days – came in July 1955. The song’s title was “Ain’t That A Shame.” It was a Top Ten pop hit; the first hard-rocking black record to cross over. However, its rise on the pop charts for Domino came in a round about way. Fats had recorded “Ain’t That A Shame” at an earlier 1955 studio session in Los Angeles.
However, within a week of Domino’s initial recording, a white movie star named Pat Boone also recorded a version of the same song. Boone, then something of heart throb among teen girls because of his movies, was not then a successful singer, although he had cut one recording that did poorly a year earlier. Still, Boone’s managers thought he might have some success in that arena given his film exposure.
In any case, Boone’s version of the Domino song charted in July, and soon became a No. 1 hit – his first. Boone’s version of “Ain’t That A Shame” stayed in the Top 40 for 20 weeks. And according to one source, that set the stage for the early part of Boone’s singing career, which then focused on covering R&B songs for the white American market.
Yet the Boone version of “Ain’t That A Shame” – arriving on the pop charts first – apparently didn’t hurt Domino’s version, which hit the pop charts shortly after Boone’s did, in mid-July 1955, and rose to No 10. Domino’s version — which also hit No.1 on the R&B chart — stayed in the Top 40 for 13 weeks. However, between the two versions, since Domino and Bartholomew were the authors of the song and collected publisher’s fees, the two had a pretty good payday thanks in part to Boone’s successful No. 1 version, as well as their own. Domino, all in good fun, reportedly complimented Boone on his cover of the song. And on one later occasion, at a concert where Domino invited Boone on stage, Domino showed off a big gold ring he was wearing, making the comment: “Pat Boone bought me this ring.”
Ray Arthur
Whoever wrote that has no credibility at all due to the fact that so many facts are incorrect. Boone was not a movie star in 1955, and he had a couple of big hits already before that record. Fats making a passing remark during a show means nothing.
Roger Ford
2018-09-20 17:46:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Post by xpenenyx
On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:19:54 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
On Wednesday, September 19, 2018 at 12:12:40 PM UTC-4, xpenenyx wrote:=
Post by xpenenyx
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 23:42:10 -0700 (PDT), "Dean F."
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?=
The Will Dockery name he is using should adequately answer that
question!
It is simply a current discussion that I looked for some feedback on, =
here.
Post by xpenenyx
If it doesn't interest you, your easiest choisce is to ignore the post=
=2E
Post by xpenenyx
The Dockery brothers were White racist plantation owners that
exploited poor Blacks. Pat Boone was a White singer that exploited
black music which is basically all that he is remembered for.
Boone's singing of black music was essentially ministerial show
quality minus the blackface.
Go troll elsewhere.
:)
I=E2=80=99m not supporting the annoying Dockery in any way but to be clea=
r, Fats did quite well on his own. And even better thanks to Boone.
From http://www.pophistorydig.com/topics/tag/fats-domino-pat-boone/
Domino=E2=80=99s first pop hit and first =E2=80=9Ccrossover=E2=80=9D succ=
ess =E2=80=94 as R&B songs moving to the mainstream white pop charts were t=
ermed in those days =E2=80=93 came in July 1955. The song=E2=80=99s title w=
as =E2=80=9CAin=E2=80=99t That A Shame.=E2=80=9D It was a Top Ten pop hit; =
the first hard-rocking black record to cross over. However, its rise on the=
pop charts for Domino came in a round about way. Fats had recorded =E2=80=
=9CAin=E2=80=99t That A Shame=E2=80=9D at an earlier 1955 studio session in=
Los Angeles.
However, within a week of Domino=E2=80=99s initial recording, a white mov=
ie star named Pat Boone also recorded a version of the same song. Boone, th=
en something of heart throb among teen girls because of his movies, was not=
then a successful singer, although he had cut one recording that did poorl=
y a year earlier. Still, Boone=E2=80=99s managers thought he might have som=
e success in that arena given his film exposure.
In any case, Boone=E2=80=99s version of the Domino song charted in July, =
and soon became a No. 1 hit =E2=80=93 his first. Boone=E2=80=99s version of=
=E2=80=9CAin=E2=80=99t That A Shame=E2=80=9D stayed in the Top 40 for 20 w=
eeks. And according to one source, that set the stage for the early part of=
Boone=E2=80=99s singing career, which then focused on covering R&B songs f=
or the white American market.
Yet the Boone version of =E2=80=9CAin=E2=80=99t That A Shame=E2=80=9D =E2=
=80=93 arriving on the pop charts first =E2=80=93 apparently didn=E2=80=99t=
hurt Domino=E2=80=99s version, which hit the pop charts shortly after Boon=
e=E2=80=99s did, in mid-July 1955, and rose to No 10. Domino=E2=80=99s vers=
ion =E2=80=94 which also hit No.1 on the R&B chart =E2=80=94 stayed in the =
Top 40 for 13 weeks. However, between the two versions, since Domino and Ba=
rtholomew were the authors of the song and collected publisher=E2=80=99s fe=
es, the two had a pretty good payday thanks in part to Boone=E2=80=99s succ=
essful No. 1 version, as well as their own. Domino, all in good fun, report=
edly complimented Boone on his cover of the song. And on one later occasion=
, at a concert where Domino invited Boone on stage, Domino showed off a big=
gold ring he was wearing, making the comment: =E2=80=9CPat Boone bought me=
this ring.=E2=80=9D
Ray Arthur
Whoever wrote that has no credibility at all due to the fact that so many f=
acts are incorrect. Boone was not a movie star in 1955, and he had a couple=
of big hits already before that record. Fats making a passing remark durin=
g a show means nothing.
For the record Boone's first movie appearance was in "Bernardine" in
1957 tho he did warble the theme song to "Friendly Persuasion"over the
credits in that movie a year earlier.

I only see one hit record by him before "Ain't That A Shame" (that
only reached #1 on the BB juke box chart BTW. It was never #1 on the
best seller chart) this being his first record on Dot---his Top 20
version of "Two Hearts" earlier in 1955. Prior to that he had two poor
selling singles on the Republic label

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "m" in my e-mail address (***@mmail.com).
Please delete same before responding.Thank you!
t***@iwvisp.com
2018-09-20 18:26:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SavoyBG
Post by t***@iwvisp.com
Post by xpenenyx
On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:19:54 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by xpenenyx
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 23:42:10 -0700 (PDT), "Dean F."
Post by Dean F.
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
The Will Dockery name he is using should adequately answer that
question!
It is simply a current discussion that I looked for some feedback on, here.
If it doesn't interest you, your easiest choisce is to ignore the post.
The Dockery brothers were White racist plantation owners that
exploited poor Blacks. Pat Boone was a White singer that exploited
black music which is basically all that he is remembered for.
Boone's singing of black music was essentially ministerial show
quality minus the blackface.
Go troll elsewhere.
Post by Will Dockery
:)
I’m not supporting the annoying Dockery in any way but to be clear, Fats did quite well on his own. And even better thanks to Boone.
From http://www.pophistorydig.com/topics/tag/fats-domino-pat-boone/
Domino’s first pop hit and first “crossover” success — as R&B songs moving to the mainstream white pop charts were termed in those days – came in July 1955. The song’s title was “Ain’t That A Shame.” It was a Top Ten pop hit; the first hard-rocking black record to cross over. However, its rise on the pop charts for Domino came in a round about way. Fats had recorded “Ain’t That A Shame” at an earlier 1955 studio session in Los Angeles.
However, within a week of Domino’s initial recording, a white movie star named Pat Boone also recorded a version of the same song. Boone, then something of heart throb among teen girls because of his movies, was not then a successful singer, although he had cut one recording that did poorly a year earlier. Still, Boone’s managers thought he might have some success in that arena given his film exposure.
In any case, Boone’s version of the Domino song charted in July, and soon became a No. 1 hit – his first. Boone’s version of “Ain’t That A Shame” stayed in the Top 40 for 20 weeks. And according to one source, that set the stage for the early part of Boone’s singing career, which then focused on covering R&B songs for the white American market.
Yet the Boone version of “Ain’t That A Shame” – arriving on the pop charts first – apparently didn’t hurt Domino’s version, which hit the pop charts shortly after Boone’s did, in mid-July 1955, and rose to No 10. Domino’s version — which also hit No.1 on the R&B chart — stayed in the Top 40 for 13 weeks. However, between the two versions, since Domino and Bartholomew were the authors of the song and collected publisher’s fees, the two had a pretty good payday thanks in part to Boone’s successful No. 1 version, as well as their own. Domino, all in good fun, reportedly complimented Boone on his cover of the song. And on one later occasion, at a concert where Domino invited Boone on stage, Domino showed off a big gold ring he was wearing, making the comment: “Pat Boone bought me this ring.”
Ray Arthur
Whoever wrote that has no credibility at all due to the fact that so many facts are incorrect. Boone was not a movie star in 1955, and he had a couple of big hits already before that record. Fats making a passing remark during a show means nothing.
The point of the excerpt, and maybe I copied too much that got you riled up, is:

"However, between the two versions, since Domino and Bartholomew were the authors of the song and collected publisher’s fees, the two had a pretty good payday thanks in part to Boone’s successful No. 1 version, as well as their own.

I'm not disputing the fact the pasty white "singers" got rich by covering black singers' music. Only that the songwriters did okay.

Ray
Will Dockery
2018-09-20 19:54:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by xpenenyx
On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:19:54 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by xpenenyx
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 23:42:10 -0700 (PDT), "Dean F."
Post by Dean F.
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
The Will Dockery name he is using should adequately answer that
question!
It is simply a current discussion that I looked for some feedback on, here.
If it doesn't interest you, your easiest choisce is to ignore the post.
The Dockery brothers were White racist plantation owners that
exploited poor Blacks.
I have the same last name as these Dockery folks you mention, but I' not directly related to them.

My side of the Dockery family comes from the Virginia/Tennessee border area, and before that, Ireland... nowhere close to the Dockery brothers you mentioned.
Post by xpenenyx
Pat Boone was a White singer that exploited
black music which is basically all that he is remembered for.
Boone's singing of black music was essentially ministerial show
quality minus the blackface.
Go troll elsewhere.
Post by Will Dockery
:)
xpenenyx
2018-09-24 19:53:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 12:54:02 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by xpenenyx
On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:19:54 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
Post by xpenenyx
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 23:42:10 -0700 (PDT), "Dean F."
Post by Dean F.
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
The Will Dockery name he is using should adequately answer that
question!
It is simply a current discussion that I looked for some feedback on, here.
If it doesn't interest you, your easiest choisce is to ignore the post.
The Dockery brothers were White racist plantation owners that
exploited poor Blacks.
I have the same last name as these Dockery folks you mention, but I' not directly related to them.
My side of the Dockery family comes from the Virginia/Tennessee border area, and before that, Ireland... nowhere close to the Dockery brothers you mentioned.
And where do you think the Dockery brothers's
ancestors were originally from?
Post by Will Dockery
Post by xpenenyx
Pat Boone was a White singer that exploited
black music which is basically all that he is remembered for.
Boone's singing of black music was essentially ministerial show
quality minus the blackface.
Go troll elsewhere.
Post by Will Dockery
:)
Will Dockery
2018-09-25 19:10:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by xpenenyx
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 12:54:02 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
I have the same last name as these Dockery folks you mention, but I'm not directly related to them.
My side of the Dockery family comes from the Virginia/Tennessee border area, and before that, Ireland... nowhere close to the Dockery brothers you mentioned.
And where do you think the Dockery brothers's
ancestors were originally from?
I could guess, but I don't know... "Dockery" is simply a more common name than you seem to realize.
Will Dockery
2018-10-20 00:46:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dean F.
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
Enlighten me, what part of this discussion is ridiculous?
Dean F.
2018-10-20 05:13:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Enlighten me, what part of this discussion is ridiculous?
https://medium.com/@wschae/flogging-a-dead-horse-bf725279ba00
Will Dockery
2018-10-20 16:40:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Enlighten me, what part of this discussion is ridiculous?
Yes, I see, and a quick Google search of "Little Richard vs. Pat Boone" produces definitive statements:

https://quizlet.com/124312127/history-of-rock-prelim-flash-cards/

Little Richard
"Mixed Hard Gospel, Boogie Woogie and blues to make a name for himself signing blues. Tutti Frutti was a huge cross over hit in 1955. Label tried to white wash it by having Pat Boone record a version that ultimately fell flat..."

Race in rock and roll
"Many songs were originally sung by black artists and then repackaged by labels with white artists singing (Tutti Frutti Little Richard vs. Pat Boone). Journalist Crosby blames ASCAP pulling its songs from the radio for the degradation of popular music. ASCAP represented exclusively white artists in 1956..."

And...

https://quizlet.com/295061125/american-popular-music-midterm-2-flash-cards/

"Cover" Phenomenon
o VIDEOS: Tutti Frutti - Little Richard vs Pat Boone
• Dot records used Boone to cover black R&B musicians like Little Richard
o "mechanical revenues" are what Little Richard lost
o lack of legal recognition for recording (performance) as copyrighable intellectual property

And... so it goes.
Will Dockery
2018-10-29 10:51:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dean F.
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
I haven't thought much about it until recently, Little Richard, a rock
innovator, Pat Boone, a second-hander.

There was never much question beyond that, to me.
Will Dockery
2018-11-07 18:04:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Jim Colegrove
On Sat, 29 Sep 2018 09:57:18 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
For me, it wasn't a matter of "black" or "white"; it was a matter of
"r&b" and "pop." The r&b originals have a slower beat than the pop
covers. Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard's records have a *very*
different sound. Not because Pat Boone is white, but because Pat Boone
sings in the traditional pop style to a pop-rock arrangement.
I wonder how Boone being a straight Christian conservation would react
to all the virtual fellating you gave him over these many years
You misquoted me, you know, right?
You know I didn't write the above quoted text, or do you?
--------------
Since "Pendragon" has used a few other names here, such as
"Scarlotti" and "Charles Rogan," you will forgive Doug if he thinks you
are yet another sock puppet.

We had quite enough of him when he was here. I and some others who use
newsreaders were able to killfile him. The Google contingent wasted a
good part of their lives arguing with him.

In other words, please cease and desist from reposting anything he has
written, here or anywhere else. We don't care what he thinks or says,
as long as he doesn't do it here.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pendragon, this is an example of how the regulars at the 1950s music group
feel about you... 15 years after you left the group.

So... yes, I do think you understand the situation.

:)
Will Dockery
2018-11-07 19:20:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dean F.
Why in the hell would you resurrect this ridiculous old discussion?
How about this one, Dean?

Dean F. 'DAVE MARSH on Scarlotti'...rec.music-rock-pop-r+b 1950s, 29 May
2003

Some time ago, Diane suggested that I e-mail my acquaintance, rock
critic/journalist Dave Marsh, about Scarlotti. I never actually did it,
though, until last night. I'm still not sure why; perhaps Scarlotti's
alternate-universe dissection of "Sh-Boom" was the final straw.
Whatever the case, last night I conducted a Google search, from which I cut
and pasted a half-dozen or so of what I considered vintage Scarlotti
postings. I also provided Marsh with some background info on the situation
in our newsgroup, and asked if he would consider reading the material I was
enclosing and commenting on it.

Not only did Dave comment, but he did so in a fair amount of detail. His
e-mail to me is below. Hope you enjoy!

--D.F.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Oh, so it was Dean F. who knows Dave Marsh... I'll need to look at more of
this in the archives...


Feel free to circulate this:

You can't actually argue with a white supremacist. They can't afford to
admit error in any detail, otherwise their entire pseudo-intellectual house
of cards falls apart. For the benefit of anyone who isn't a cement-headed
bigot, I offer the following:

The Orioles had TWO big pop chart hits ("It's Too Soon to Know" #13, "Crying
in the Chapel" #11 by the reckoning of Joel Whitburn's Pop Memories
1890-1954; I know of no scholar of pop music in America who considers this
anything but definitive). The influence of the Orioles on early doo-wop is
obvious to anyone who bothers to listen--as is the influence of the Ink
Spots, whose approach is to my ear considerably different, having in the
first place much less gospel to it. However, since Scarlotti virtually
boasts of not bothering to listen, who can refute his ignorant ass?

"Who put the R&B style into the mainstream" is pretty well documented. It
wasn't the Ink Spots. I'd suggest that anyone who is interested-this
wouldn't include Scarlotti of course, because to He Whom All Things Are
Already Revealed, mere scholarship would be demeaning-read the account by
Philip H. Ennis, a Columbia University sociologist, in The Seventh Stream.
Ennis was there at the time, he studied the thing in greater depth than
anyone else, he does not discount white pop at all (in fact, he includes
some streams-e.g., Latin, at least by incorporation-that virtually no one
else does). Also see Gillett's The Sound of the City and Charles Hamm's
Yesterdays. (I would like to see Scarlotti try to discredit Hamm, a full
professor at Dartmouth, head of their music department and scholar not only
of Tin Pan Alley - he wrote a book about Irving Berlin, straight-up
musicology-but of Charles Ives, than whom nothing is more
white-bread/white-bred.)

But Scarlotti is beyond reasoning.

<< If a group's songs -- relegated to "race records" and a limited, insular
market - receive no airplay on the mainstream stations, can they be said to
have had a direct and profound effect on mainstream music? (The answer is
no.)>>

This is, quite simply, stupid. First, it misunderstands what DIRECT means as
to influence. Go thumb through Elvis Presley's record collection some time
(I once did); it is full of the kind of music that Scarlotti insists does
not matter.

Second, he misunderstands what "profound" means. It means deep
and awesome-as in "profound silence," "profound deafness" (the latter
particularly apropos in this context).

Neither of these qualities requires actually being present on
the pop charts. And in any event, there was plenty of black pop music on the
charts in the period in question (Ink Spots, Nat Cole as solo and more
pertinently with Trio, et cetera).

Third, Scarlotti makes an assumption about charts that is
completely anachronistic. Charts then were not what charts are today. First,
they were much more limited in the period 1938-1954, and there were several
different charts-not just one, including stuff like Juke Box Play, Best
Selling Records and Disc Jockey Charts. Much of what sold was undocumented.
Bob Rolontz, who was a Billboard reporter in the early '50s (he wrote the
Billboard review of "That's All Right Mama" for instance) once estimated to
me that Little Willie John's Fever outsold Peggy Lee's on the order of three
to one, but that the system of weighting airplay into the charts and of
stores "reporting" what was good for their main vendors skewed the chart.

Another anachronistic attitude is that radio airplay was
anything like as monolithic as it now is. Disc jockey shows, as I am old
enough to recall even if ample documentation didn't already exist, had great
latitude in what they played; regional hits were incredibly important and
that meant that a hit in the North was not necessarily a hit in the South,
Midwest, Southwest or Northwest; distribution was incredibly uneven so that
records made west of the Rockies even if they got a good deal of airplay
would not show up strongly on the charts.

Fourth, you can't altogether trust the charts because-like disc
jockey needle time-chart positions were to a great extent for sale. This is
also readily documented, in similar histories.

Fifth, looking at records won't tell you the history because,
until very late in the game, records were toys. The real business *and the
real artifacts of that business* were sheet music and live performance, and
success there told a very different story. Somehow, you know, huge fortunes
were made by Ralph Peer and Roy Acuff/Wesley Rose in Nashville, even though
only a tiny percentage of their records (and even, songs) ever got covered
as pop hits. You think they made it all off "Tennessee Waltz," which is what
you would think from the charts? Not so.

The case for Johnnie Ray is interesting and not original. It doesn't really
work. At best, what one can say is that Ray anticipated much that would
follow, and that he had some influence on the dramatic stances of early
rockers. But was he more "influential" than say, Lowman Pauling, who
contributed two key songs ("Dedicated to the One I Love" and "Think"),
recentered the instrumental side (which Scarlotti seems totally uninterested
in) from sax to guitar, and who did much more to bridge the sacred-secular
gulf than anyone until Ray Charles? (Robert Palmer is devastating good about
Pauling and his group, the Five Royales.)

In part, Scarlotti exposes himself by insisting that there must
be *a* "'father' of the mass cultural giant" (what a bloated phrase!). There
were many. Johnnie Ray owns no real primacy of place over Louis Jordan, over
the Soul Stirrers, Dixie Hummingbirds and (particularly) Swan Silvertones,
over the work not only of Hank Williams but of Moon Mullican, Bob Wills,
Bill Monroe and Lefty Frizzell. Ralph Gleason argued that the basic beat
came from Jimmy Lunceford's great (black) big bands; you can hear some of
that. Ahmet Ertegun says the whole thing comes out of "Pinetop's Boogie
Woogie," and if you listen a while, you might hear what he means (without
thinking it's anywhere near that simple).

The origin of rock 'n' roll is a non-sexual process. It is
PROCESS, though, above all, and as such has no simple lineage such as this
discussion mistakenly tries to create. A product of such process has a
heritage whose chart resembles not so much a tree as a bush. Johnny Ray has
a place on that bush. So do 30 or 40 others, and most of them are black.
Hell, even a fascist mug like Lee Atwater knew that much.

A major problem with Scarlotti's case is that he lacks an understanding of
that process. Consider:

<< In the 20s, 30s, and 40s when a new song came out everybody covered it --
and the best version (hopefully) became the hit>>

Presuming I understand him correctly in his use of "hopefully," he seems to
have the idea that the system itself somehow harbored such hopes. In fact,
there is ample evidence-and none of which I am aware to the contrary-that
the system, and almost everyone within the system, hoped that their version
became a hit, whatever its relative aesthetic merit. Second, "everybody"
covered it applies to a very narrow spectrum of music. "Everybody" didn't
cover "Oklahoma Hills." "Everybody" didn't cover "Muskrat Ramble."
"Everybody" didn't cover "Tennessee Waltz." "Everybody" didn't even cover
"Stardust." People who thought they could do well with it-mainly,
economically do well, but also, people who had an idea of how to make a
different flavor of "Stardust"-they "covered" it. (The use of "cover" is
another anachronism. The cover had a VERY specific meaning then, it meant
trying to kill off the versions done by others, simultaneously. Scarlotti
uses the word where it simply means "do another version of.")

Second, Scarlotti seems under the mistaken impression that this
process stopped after the '40s. It clearly did not. LaVern Baker went to a
Congressional hearing and complained about Georgia Gibbs knocking off her
R&B hits (a very precise example of "cover")-if Scarlotti had read ANY good
history, he'd know that. (Of course at this point, one has to realize that
one is dealing with a man both smug enough to think his preference for
Georgia Gibbs above all other female singers is aesthetically beyond
challenge, and so socially isolated that he can't imagine the gales of
laughter erupting from the knowing at this statement. Hey, Cub Koda and I
used to argue all the time about him liking Gary Lewis and the Playboys, but
Cub never tried to claim that Gary ran a better band than the Stones.)

The "cover" process he's talking about didn't end until the '60s
with the advent of Motown and the Beatles. The basic reason that it ended
was that the music world finally made the transition-then and only then-from
thinking about the "song" as the main property to thinking about the
*performance* as the main property. There were dozens if not hundreds of
versions of Michelle and Yesterday. None were "covers," because the people
who made them understood that they had not a prayer of
eclipsing-commercially, if not aesthetically-the Beatles' versions. That was
a huge change.

There is a great deal more about the process of which he is
apparently ignorant.

It is very, very likely that *over the span of years* during
which Etta James's "The Wallflower" has been reissued about 25 times for
every once that lame-ass Gibbs version has been, James outsold Gibbs *by
far.*

This is an argument about influence. Influence is ongoing-again,
part of a process. But even at the time, if "influence" is what one is
talking about, simply ask yourself this: Five years later, or even three
years later, were there more singers on the charts who sounded like Etta
James or more singers who sounded like Georgia Gibbs. Scarlotti is ignorant
because, in large part, Scarlotti is too lazy (arguably too stupid but why
get into that?) to think the issue through.

There is something to be said, also, about the way in which "rock" has
replaced "pop," as Scarlotti claims. But to really analyze what happened,
you would also need to take into account the various subsets who use the
term much more restrictively. You would have to divine that "pop" today does
not mean what "pop" meant yesterday. In short, you'd have to do some work,
which Scarlotti is obviously too indolent to take on. (I've written about
this issue off and on for 30 years. It is an issue and a meaningful one.
Scarlotti understands it about the same way that a man coming out a bar
blind drunk would understand a horse if he slipped and fell into a pile of
horseshit. He'd know the beast had been there, but nothing about its actual
size, appetites and other particulars.)

Scarlotti plays rather fast and loose with terminology, while attempting to
aggrandize all definitions of it. Anyone who thinks that the Flamingos and
Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers weren't doo-wop is so ignorant of doo-wop
that he is not really entitled to a voice in a serious discussion (which the
dialogue obviously isn't, just a couple of sincere people trying to debate
a self-centered blowhard.) Consider

<< Buddy and Chuck, that is. Since my thoughts on them are similar, I
figured I'd just combine them>>

In the history of narcissism, it would be very difficult to find a better
example of how it works. My thoughts about Scarlotti and Dennis Miller are
similar-both are self-satisfied, know-it-all pinheads-but that doesn't mean
that Scarlotti once appeared on Monday Night Football. Or that what I think
about comedians who don't barge into discussions of pop music with
assholeian theories makes a whit of difference to someone who actually knows
something about comedy. Or football hosts. Who CARES if Scarlotti thinks the
same of Chuck and Buddy? He seems to think it matters but why do any of YOU?
Ignore the son of a bitch, or call him sixteen kinds of cocksucker-I
certainly would-and try to drive his dipshit presence out of your
discussion.

I could pick this shit apart all day-Pat Boone almost certainly wasn't the
"second most popular" rock star of the '50s. Fats Domino charted many more
records, he was on the charts first and he was on way, way beyond when Pat
went back to seminary or got caught fucking Red Foley's daughter and had to
get hitched, whichever came first. Again, he assumes some fallacies-that the
charts tell all, that the pop charts matter and the R&B charts are
inconsequential.

I don't know why anyone would bother mentioning this to Scarlotti, who would
undoubtedly simply gobble another Cheeto, fart and start masturbating to
some other tune. There is no one who has done their homework, and isn't a
lazy belligerent Internet schmuck, who thinks what he thinks. If I couldn't
boot his sorry ass out of the discussion, I'd go start a discussion
somewhere else. Or dare the shithead to try to get his "theories" published
and suffer the various consequences (ridicule, failure to get ms. accepted
by any reputable publisher, much more specific refutation than I have time
for here). Just every time he opens his pompous stupid fool mouth, tell him
"Go try and peddle it. You believe that quantity is quality" - a fascistic
belief, I might add-"go try to find a 'market' for this nonsense. And if you
can't, shut the fuck up."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa
Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT

:)
SavoyBG
2018-11-07 20:09:54 UTC
Reply
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Post by Will Dockery
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa
Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
Did the imposter mess up and leave this in his post?

Gee Will, thanks a lot
Will Dockery
2018-11-07 22:55:17 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Will Dockery
STEPHAN PICKERING / חפץ ח"ם בן אברהם
Torah אלילה Yehu'di Apikores / Philologia Kabbalistica Speculativa
Researcher
לחיות זמן רב ולשגשג...לעולם לא עוד
THE KABBALAH FRACTALS PROJECT
Did the imposter mess up and leave this in his post?
Gee Will, thanks a lot for bringing this schmuck into the group.
I didn't bring anyone, Bruce... apparently a couple of trolls did stalk me over here.

:)
SavoyBG
2018-11-07 23:00:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, November 7, 2018 at 5:55:23 PM UTC-5, Will Dockery wrote:

Can you just leave, so maybe they'll also leave?

Jim Colegrove
2018-09-15 14:50:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 12:11:49 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
True, and add to that the fact that Pendragon Judge talent on the basis of commercial success.
Pat Boone sold more records, so he must be more talented, by Pendragon's logic.
There's a world of difference between having been one of the most successful recording artists of all time and ... "performing" once a week at the local bar on open mic night.
In terms of vocal talent, Pat Boone could sing circles around you.
No argumeent, there.
http://youtu.be/PvvlV_gE65M
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
Thanks Robert -- I just listened and lost my dinner.
If your taste in food is as bland as your taste in music, Michael, you probably regurgitated some lightly toasted white bread and milk.
Well, Michael has often placed Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard tunes as "better" than the originals.
I find Little Richard's voice almost as revolting as Bob Dylan's. Neither of these abominations appear on the 25,000+ songs in my i-library.
Pat Boone, otoh, has one of the smoothest voices I've ever heard. His records are always a pleasure to listen to.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
http://youtu.be/Sm39Es2cYAk
vs
http://youtu.be/F13JNjpNW6c
So Will, have you done the side-by-side comparison?
Pat Boone outsings Little Richard, has a better band, a better arrangement, and one of the greatest sax breaks in the history of rock 'n' roll.
Agree?
Okay, this is a comparison between Pat Boone and Little Richard?
Not having checked the link yet, I was expecting it to be Tiny Tim vs. Jerry Lee Lewis...
I will definitely have a listen.
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Will Dockery
2018-09-15 21:55:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jim Colegrove
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 12:11:49 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
True, and add to that the fact that Pendragon Judge talent on the basis of commercial success.
Pat Boone sold more records, so he must be more talented, by Pendragon's logic.
There's a world of difference between having been one of the most successful recording artists of all time and ... "performing" once a week at the local bar on open mic night.
In terms of vocal talent, Pat Boone could sing circles around you.
No argumeent, there.
http://youtu.be/PvvlV_gE65M
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
Thanks Robert -- I just listened and lost my dinner.
If your taste in food is as bland as your taste in music, Michael, you probably regurgitated some lightly toasted white bread and milk.
Well, Michael has often placed Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard tunes as "better" than the originals.
I find Little Richard's voice almost as revolting as Bob Dylan's. Neither of these abominations appear on the 25,000+ songs in my i-library.
Pat Boone, otoh, has one of the smoothest voices I've ever heard. His records are always a pleasure to listen to.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
http://youtu.be/Sm39Es2cYAk
vs
http://youtu.be/F13JNjpNW6c
So Will, have you done the side-by-side comparison?
Pat Boone outsings Little Richard, has a better band, a better arrangement, and one of the greatest sax breaks in the history of rock 'n' roll.
Agree?
Okay, this is a comparison between Pat Boone and Little Richard?
Not having checked the link yet, I was expecting it to be Tiny Tim vs. Jerry Lee Lewis...
I will definitely have a listen.
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Post by Will Dockery
You judge music quality on how many records are sold?
Will...this troll trash exists to bullshit you...he is not an artist, but a fraud...
Right, by Pen's logic, Pat Boone and Tiny Tim sold more records, thus they're better singers than Sandy Madaris or Nelly Black.
They'd be better singers than Sandy and Nelly even if they were mute.
Not to my personal taste.

For me, Sandy and Nelly /sound/ better to my ears, and I would prefer hearing their songs over, say, Pat Boone's "Speedy Gonzalis" any day.

And, we have the nagging accusation/fact that Par Boone started his career by second-handing the creations of other (black) artists:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.music.dylan/hAqAv0ISIdA/D6w1jH9IBwAJ

-------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jim Colegrove
<< It's like Pat Boone doing Tutti Futti. >>
No it isn't. I don't know how old you are, but if you were among the throngs
of us buying singles and listening to Top 40 radio in the mid-50s, you will
recall that what was called R&B in those days was branded by Top 40 radio as
"race music." In order to get these songs played on Top 40 radio at this
time, they had to be "covered" by white artists, which is why Pat Boone not
only covered 'Tutti Fruitti," but also "Long Tall Sally," Ivory Joe Huunter's
"I Almost Lost My Mind" and others and the Diamonds covered "Why Do Fools
Fall in Love," and Gale Storm covered "Ivory Tower." There were many more
instances, but those are the ones that come to mind.
Later, in the 1960s, this was still happening in some levels, when Country singers would cover Rock and Soul tunes "Country style".

The one I remember best is "Games People Play", Joe South had the hit on the Top 40 stations and Freddie Weller had his cover of the song on the Country charts.

:)
BobbyM
2018-09-16 07:21:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Jim Colegrove
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 12:11:49 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
True, and add to that the fact that Pendragon Judge talent on the basis of commercial success.
Pat Boone sold more records, so he must be more talented, by Pendragon's logic.
There's a world of difference between having been one of the most successful recording artists of all time and ... "performing" once a week at the local bar on open mic night.
In terms of vocal talent, Pat Boone could sing circles around you.
No argumeent, there.
http://youtu.be/PvvlV_gE65M
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
Thanks Robert -- I just listened and lost my dinner.
If your taste in food is as bland as your taste in music, Michael, you probably regurgitated some lightly toasted white bread and milk.
Well, Michael has often placed Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard tunes as "better" than the originals.
I find Little Richard's voice almost as revolting as Bob Dylan's. Neither of these abominations appear on the 25,000+ songs in my i-library.
Pat Boone, otoh, has one of the smoothest voices I've ever heard. His records are always a pleasure to listen to.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
http://youtu.be/Sm39Es2cYAk
vs
http://youtu.be/F13JNjpNW6c
So Will, have you done the side-by-side comparison?
Pat Boone outsings Little Richard, has a better band, a better arrangement, and one of the greatest sax breaks in the history of rock 'n' roll.
Agree?
Okay, this is a comparison between Pat Boone and Little Richard?
Not having checked the link yet, I was expecting it to be Tiny Tim vs. Jerry Lee Lewis...
I will definitely have a listen.
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Post by Will Dockery
You judge music quality on how many records are sold?
Will...this troll trash exists to bullshit you...he is not an artist, but a fraud...
Right, by Pen's logic, Pat Boone and Tiny Tim sold more records, thus they're better singers than Sandy Madaris or Nelly Black.
They'd be better singers than Sandy and Nelly even if they were mute.
Not to my personal taste.
For me, Sandy and Nelly /sound/ better to my ears, and I would prefer hearing their songs over, say, Pat Boone's "Speedy Gonzalis" any day.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.music.dylan/hAqAv0ISIdA/D6w1jH9IBwAJ
-------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jim Colegrove
<< It's like Pat Boone doing Tutti Futti. >>
No it isn't. I don't know how old you are, but if you were among the throngs
of us buying singles and listening to Top 40 radio in the mid-50s, you will
recall that what was called R&B in those days was branded by Top 40 radio as
"race music." In order to get these songs played on Top 40 radio at this
time, they had to be "covered" by white artists, which is why Pat Boone not
only covered 'Tutti Fruitti," but also "Long Tall Sally," Ivory Joe Huunter's
"I Almost Lost My Mind" and others and the Diamonds covered "Why Do Fools
Fall in Love," and Gale Storm covered "Ivory Tower." There were many more
instances, but those are the ones that come to mind.
Later, in the 1960s, this was still happening in some levels, when Country singers would cover Rock and Soul tunes "Country style".
The one I remember best is "Games People Play", Joe South had the hit on the Top 40 stations and Freddie Weller had his cover of the song on the Country charts.
Bad example, Dockeery. South's version was coming off the chart about
the time Weller's came on; and, that was only one of several South songs
that Weller recorded. Beside, Weller & South were good friends - you
oughtta know that since you're from the Atlanta area.

You really should stick with the "poetry" group & your bud, Pendragon.
Will Dockery
2018-09-16 16:41:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BobbyM
Post by Will Dockery
Post by Jim Colegrove
On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 12:11:49 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery
Post by Will Dockery
True, and add to that the fact that Pendragon Judge talent on the basis of commercial success.
Pat Boone sold more records, so he must be more talented, by Pendragon's logic.
There's a world of difference between having been one of the most successful recording artists of all time and ... "performing" once a week at the local bar on open mic night.
In terms of vocal talent, Pat Boone could sing circles around you.
No argumeent, there.
http://youtu.be/PvvlV_gE65M
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
Thanks Robert -- I just listened and lost my dinner.
If your taste in food is as bland as your taste in music, Michael, you probably regurgitated some lightly toasted white bread and milk.
Well, Michael has often placed Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard tunes as "better" than the originals.
I find Little Richard's voice almost as revolting as Bob Dylan's. Neither of these abominations appear on the 25,000+ songs in my i-library.
Pat Boone, otoh, has one of the smoothest voices I've ever heard. His records are always a pleasure to listen to.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
http://youtu.be/Sm39Es2cYAk
vs
http://youtu.be/F13JNjpNW6c
So Will, have you done the side-by-side comparison?
Pat Boone outsings Little Richard, has a better band, a better arrangement, and one of the greatest sax breaks in the history of rock 'n' roll.
Agree?
Okay, this is a comparison between Pat Boone and Little Richard?
Not having checked the link yet, I was expecting it to be Tiny Tim vs. Jerry Lee Lewis...
I will definitely have a listen.
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Post by Will Dockery
You judge music quality on how many records are sold?
Will...this troll trash exists to bullshit you...he is not an artist, but a fraud...
Right, by Pen's logic, Pat Boone and Tiny Tim sold more records, thus they're better singers than Sandy Madaris or Nelly Black.
They'd be better singers than Sandy and Nelly even if they were mute.
Not to my personal taste.
For me, Sandy and Nelly /sound/ better to my ears, and I would prefer hearing their songs over, say, Pat Boone's "Speedy Gonzalis" any day.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.music.dylan/hAqAv0ISIdA/D6w1jH9IBwAJ
-------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Jim Colegrove
<< It's like Pat Boone doing Tutti Futti. >>
No it isn't. I don't know how old you are, but if you were among the throngs
of us buying singles and listening to Top 40 radio in the mid-50s, you will
recall that what was called R&B in those days was branded by Top 40 radio as
"race music." In order to get these songs played on Top 40 radio at this
time, they had to be "covered" by white artists, which is why Pat Boone not
only covered 'Tutti Fruitti," but also "Long Tall Sally," Ivory Joe Huunter's
"I Almost Lost My Mind" and others and the Diamonds covered "Why Do Fools
Fall in Love," and Gale Storm covered "Ivory Tower." There were many more
instances, but those are the ones that come to mind.
Later, in the 1960s, this was still happening in some levels, when Country singers would cover Rock and Soul tunes "Country style".
The one I remember best is "Games People Play", Joe South had the hit on the Top 40 stations and Freddie Weller had his cover of the song on the Country charts.
Bad example, Dockeery. South's version was coming off the chart about
the time Weller's came on; and, that was only one of several South songs
that Weller recorded. Beside, Weller & South were good friends - you
oughtta know that since you're from the Atlanta area.
You really should stick with the "poetry" group & your bud, Pendragon.
I don't consider it a bad example of anything, Bobby, one of my favorite songs ever, i both versions.
Ken Whiton
2018-09-16 08:10:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
*-* On Fri, 14 Sep 2018, at 12:11:49 -0700 (PDT),
*-* In Article <245c6567-bb8f-4bbf-817e-***@googlegroups.com>,
*-* Will Dockery wrote
*-* About Pat Boone vs. Little Richard?
On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 12:02:13 AM UTC-4, Michael
[ ... ]
On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 3:34:32 AM UTC-5, Robert
[ ... ]
So Will, have you done the side-by-side comparison?
Pat Boone outsings Little Richard, has a better band, a better
arrangement, and one of the greatest sax breaks in the history of
rock 'n' roll.
Agree?
Okay, this is a comparison between Pat Boone and Little Richard?
Not having checked the link yet, I was expecting it to be Tiny Tim vs. Jerry Lee Lewis...
I will definitely have a listen.
No posts with this subject have ever appeared in this newsgroup
prior to your post to which I am replying. Furthermore, no posts on
*ANY* subject appeared in this newsgroup on any of the dates/times
cited in any of your quote headers. Where did you move this
discussion from, and why?

Ken Whiton
--
FIDO: 1:132/152
InterNet: ***@surfglobal.net.INVAL (remove the obvious to reply)
Bob Roman
2018-09-16 18:08:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ken Whiton
No posts with this subject have ever appeared in this newsgroup
prior to your post to which I am replying. Furthermore, no posts on
*ANY* subject appeared in this newsgroup on any of the dates/times
cited in any of your quote headers. Where did you move this
discussion from, and why?
From: alt.arts.poetry.comments

Why: He probably thought we would be amused.

--
BR
Will Dockery
2018-09-17 10:25:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bob Roman
Post by Ken Whiton
No posts with this subject have ever appeared in this newsgroup
prior to your post to which I am replying. Furthermore, no posts on
*ANY* subject appeared in this newsgroup on any of the dates/times
cited in any of your quote headers. Where did you move this
discussion from, and why?
From: alt.arts.poetry.comments
Why: He probably thought we would be amused.
--
BR
Well, in a newsgroup named rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s how could there be a better topic than:

Pat Boone vs. Little Richard?
Bob Roman
2018-09-17 13:40:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Well, in a newsgroup named rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s how could there be a
Pat Boone vs. Little Richard?
BTDT

--
BR
Will Dockery
2018-09-18 13:14:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
Well, in a newsgroup named rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s how could there be a
Pat Boone vs. Little Richard?
BTDT
--
BR
No surprise, there...
13 before 7
2018-09-19 05:09:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Will Dockery
True, and add to that the fact that Pendragon Judge talent on the basis of commercial success.
Pat Boone sold more records, so he must be more talented, by Pendragon's logic.
There's a world of difference between having been one of the most successful recording artists of all time and ... "performing" once a week at the local bar on open mic night.
In terms of vocal talent, Pat Boone could sing circles around you.
No argumeent, there.
http://youtu.be/PvvlV_gE65M
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
Thanks Robert -- I just listened and lost my dinner.
If your taste in food is as bland as your taste in music, Michael, you probably regurgitated some lightly toasted white bread and milk.
Well, Michael has often placed Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard tunes as "better" than the originals.
I find Little Richard's voice almost as revolting as Bob Dylan's. Neither of these abominations appear on the 25,000+ songs in my i-library.
Pat Boone, otoh, has one of the smoothest voices I've ever heard. His records are always a pleasure to listen to.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
http://youtu.be/Sm39Es2cYAk
vs
http://youtu.be/F13JNjpNW6c
So Will, have you done the side-by-side comparison?
Pat Boone outsings Little Richard, has a better band, a better arrangement, and one of the greatest sax breaks in the history of rock 'n' roll.
Agree?
Okay, this is a comparison between Pat Boone and Little Richard?
Not having checked the link yet, I was expecting it to be Tiny Tim vs. Jerry Lee Lewis...
I will definitely have a listen.
Mike Pendragon's logic is the best logic.

I enjoy Pat Boone a lot!


Sincerely,
YourGoldenRetriever

Remember the Golden Rule. Whoever has the most gold makes the rules.
Golden Retrievers have the most gold, therefore they make the rules.
Will Dockery
2018-09-19 13:53:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by 13 before 7
Post by Will Dockery
True, and add to that the fact that Pendragon Judge talent on the basis of commercial success.
Pat Boone sold more records, so he must be more talented, by Pendragon's logic.
There's a world of difference between having been one of the most successful recording artists of all time and ... "performing" once a week at the local bar on open mic night.
In terms of vocal talent, Pat Boone could sing circles around you.
No argumeent, there.
http://youtu.be/PvvlV_gE65M
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
Thanks Robert -- I just listened and lost my dinner.
If your taste in food is as bland as your taste in music, Michael, you probably regurgitated some lightly toasted white bread and milk.
Well, Michael has often placed Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard tunes as "better" than the originals.
I find Little Richard's voice almost as revolting as Bob Dylan's. Neither of these abominations appear on the 25,000+ songs in my i-library.
Pat Boone, otoh, has one of the smoothest voices I've ever heard. His records are always a pleasure to listen to.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.arts.poetry.comments/sXZcYFkS4I0/uJz5cvExAgAJ
http://youtu.be/Sm39Es2cYAk
vs
http://youtu.be/F13JNjpNW6c
So Will, have you done the side-by-side comparison?
Pat Boone outsings Little Richard, has a better band, a better arrangement, and one of the greatest sax breaks in the history of rock 'n' roll.
Agree?
Okay, this is a comparison between Pat Boone and Little Richard?
Not having checked the link yet, I was expecting it to be Tiny Tim vs. Jerry Lee Lewis...
I will definitely have a listen.
Mike Pendragon's logic is the best logic.
I enjoy Pat Boone a lot!
Sincerely,
YourGoldenRetriever
Remember the Golden Rule. Whoever has the most gold makes the rules.
Golden Retrievers have the most gold, therefore they make the rules.
Hard to argue with this...

:)
Will Dockery
2018-11-07 20:20:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I didn't being anyone, Bruce.
Dennis C
2018-11-07 20:55:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I didn't being anyone.

That's a fractal alright!
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