Discussion:
Obscure 1950s Era Recordings - July - Round 1 - Group 5
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SavoyBG
2020-07-15 12:56:57 UTC
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Group 5 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.


Oh Babe - Lester Robertson


She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter


Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs


Baby Beat It - Big Duke

SavoyBG
2020-07-15 12:57:24 UTC
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MY RANKINGS


1. Baby Beat It - Big Duke
2. Oh Babe - Lester Robertson
3. She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter
4. Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs
DianeE
2020-07-15 13:10:01 UTC
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1-Baby Beat It - Big Duke
2-She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter
3-Oh Babe - Lester Robertson
4-Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs
Roger Ford
2020-07-15 13:32:01 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Group 5 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Baby Beat It - Big Duke
She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter
Oh Babe - Lester Robertson
Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs

One of my top favorites in the whole shebang here!


ROGER FORD
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RWC
2020-07-15 13:47:26 UTC
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MY RANKINGS

1. Oh Babe - Lester Robertson
2. She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter
3. Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs
4. Baby Beat It - Big Duke
Steve Mc
2020-07-15 14:02:26 UTC
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1. She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter

2. Oh Babe - Lester Robertson

3. Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs

4. Baby Beat It - Big Duke
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Steve Mc

DNA to SBC to respond
Carl
2020-07-15 13:50:10 UTC
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1-Holy Smoke Baby - Cadillacs
2-She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter
3-Baby Beat It - Big Duke
4-Oh Babe - Lester Robertson
Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-15 13:59:27 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Group 5 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Oh Babe - Lester Robertson
She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter
Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs
Baby Beat It - Big Duke

I understand why people like the Big Duke record, but as the saying
goes in my profession "Hacks plagiarize, artists steal," and for me the
Duke is plagiarizing.
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SavoyBG
2020-07-15 14:41:09 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by SavoyBG
Group 5 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Oh Babe - Lester Robertson
She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter
Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs
Baby Beat It - Big Duke
I understand why people like the Big Duke record, but as the saying
goes in my profession "Hacks plagiarize, artists steal," and for me the
Duke is plagiarizing.
So, all that matters is what's coming out of the speakers. Either it sounds good, or it doesn't. How is got that way is not relevant to how good it is.
Bill B
2020-07-15 14:48:13 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
I understand why people like the Big Duke record, but as the saying
goes in my profession "Hacks plagiarize, artists steal," and for me the
Duke is plagiarizing.>
So, all that matters is what's coming out of the speakers. Either it sounds good, or it doesn't. How is got that way is not relevant to how good it is.
Do you figure if you keep repeating this drivel, others will accept it as fact relative to this contest?

There is nothing that says a person's votes must be based on how "good" a record is.
SavoyBG
2020-07-15 15:00:09 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
I understand why people like the Big Duke record, but as the saying
goes in my profession "Hacks plagiarize, artists steal," and for me the
Duke is plagiarizing.>
So, all that matters is what's coming out of the speakers. Either it sounds good, or it doesn't. How is got that way is not relevant to how good it is.
Do you figure if you keep repeating this drivel, others will accept it as fact relative to this contest?
There is nothing that says a person's votes must be based on how "good" a record is.
Oh yes there is. The instructions for ever group are...
Post by Bill B
Please rank these from best to worst.
It doesn't say to rank them based on originality or substance, only on how good each record is.
Bill B
2020-07-15 15:32:35 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
So, all that matters is what's coming out of the speakers. Either it sounds good, or it doesn't. How is got that way is not relevant to how good it is.
Do you figure if you keep repeating this drivel, others will accept it as fact relative to this contest?
There is nothing that says a person's votes must be based on how "good" a record is.
Oh yes there is. The instructions for ever group are...
Post by Bill B
Please rank these from best to worst.
It doesn't say to rank them based on originality or substance, only on how good each record is.
You define good as what comes out of the speakers. I include other factors such as lyrics (which also come out of the speakers but which you don't consider) and originality in the definition of good.
SavoyBG
2020-07-16 00:16:57 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
So, all that matters is what's coming out of the speakers. Either it sounds good, or it doesn't. How is got that way is not relevant to how good it is.
Do you figure if you keep repeating this drivel, others will accept it as fact relative to this contest?
There is nothing that says a person's votes must be based on how "good" a record is.
Oh yes there is. The instructions for ever group are...
Post by Bill B
Please rank these from best to worst.
It doesn't say to rank them based on originality or substance, only on how good each record is.
You define good as what comes out of the speakers. I include other factors such as lyrics (which also come out of the speakers but which you don't consider) and originality in the definition of good.
Show me anywhere that says that originality is part of good.

Do you also score originality as part of good when it comes to food?
Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-16 02:58:47 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
So, all that matters is what's coming out of the speakers. Either it
sounds good, or it doesn't. How is got that way is not relevant to
how good it is.
Do you figure if you keep repeating this drivel, others will accept it
as fact relative to this contest?
There is nothing that says a person's votes must be based on how "good"
a record is.
Oh yes there is. The instructions for ever group are...
Post by Bill B
Please rank these from best to worst.
It doesn't say to rank them based on originality or substance, only on
how good each record is.
You define good as what comes out of the speakers. I include other factors
such as lyrics (which also come out of the speakers but which you don't
consider) and originality in the definition of good.
Show me anywhere that says that originality is part of good.
Practically every critic of every art form has been praising
originality for at least three centuries, and if we are to treat our
music with artistic seriousness, as most of us would wish, than it too
should have originality as one part of what makes it good. Do you think
tribute bands, even assuming they're talented, deserve the same acclaim
as the acts they're copying?
Post by SavoyBG
Do you also score originality as part of good when it comes to food?
Yes, definitely. Otherwise we'd still be eating hunks of meat held over
the fire with a stick and and maybe some raw root vegetables on the
side.
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SavoyBG
2020-07-16 05:37:43 UTC
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Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
So, all that matters is what's coming out of the speakers. Either it
sounds good, or it doesn't. How is got that way is not relevant to
how good it is.
Do you figure if you keep repeating this drivel, others will accept it
as fact relative to this contest?
There is nothing that says a person's votes must be based on how "good"
a record is.
Oh yes there is. The instructions for ever group are...
Post by Bill B
Please rank these from best to worst.
It doesn't say to rank them based on originality or substance, only on
how good each record is.
You define good as what comes out of the speakers. I include other factors
such as lyrics (which also come out of the speakers but which you don't
consider) and originality in the definition of good.
Show me anywhere that says that originality is part of good.
Practically every critic of every art form has been praising
originality for at least three centuries, and if we are to treat our
music with artistic seriousness, as most of us would wish, than it too
should have originality as one part of what makes it good. Do you think
tribute bands, even assuming they're talented, deserve the same acclaim
as the acts they're copying?
I don't care much about "acclaim." I only care what the recordings sound like. If a tribute version of a song is better to me than the version by the band they are paying tribute to, I will grade it higher. For instance, I prefer this slightly to the Beatles version:



I think he sings it with more emotion that McCartney does. Paul is more of a technician when he sings. The lead vocalist on this version sounds more like he feels the song to me.
Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-16 14:05:34 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
I don't care much about "acclaim." I only care what the recordings sound
like. If a tribute version of a song is better to me than the version by the
band they are paying tribute to, I will grade it higher. For instance, I
http://youtu.be/ewJPKTmnlYs
I think he sings it with more emotion that McCartney does. Paul is more of a
technician when he sings. The lead vocalist on this version sounds more like
he feels the song to me.
I guess you didn't quite get all of "hacks plagiarize, artists steal."
EC is a first-rate artist and does the "stolen" song in his own way, in
a good performance, though I still like Paul's version better because
the song really is a kind of joke written in response to John's
"Strawberry Fields."
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SavoyBG
2020-07-16 14:15:09 UTC
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Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
I don't care much about "acclaim." I only care what the recordings sound
like. If a tribute version of a song is better to me than the version by the
band they are paying tribute to, I will grade it higher. For instance, I
http://youtu.be/ewJPKTmnlYs
I think he sings it with more emotion that McCartney does. Paul is more of a
technician when he sings. The lead vocalist on this version sounds more like
he feels the song to me.
I guess you didn't quite get all of "hacks plagiarize, artists steal."
EC is a first-rate artist and does the "stolen" song in his own way, in
a good performance, though I still like Paul's version better because
the song really is a kind of joke written in response to John's
"Strawberry Fields."
Who gets to decide who are the hacks and who are the artists? I say that George Thorogood is much better than Elvis Costello.

And Paul decided to write "Penny Lane" after John mentioned it in "In My Life."
Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-16 14:32:51 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Who gets to decide who are the hacks and who are the artists? I say that
George Thorogood is much better than Elvis Costello.
Everyone is entitled to decide. And we all have no trouble coming to
conclusions about other people's tastes. And that's a good thing. I'm
sure we all started arguing about other people's musical tastes when we
were about thirteen, and the more vehement the argument became, the
more we realized that the music was important to us. All art criticism
is just an often productive and stimulating and endless argument.
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SavoyBG
2020-07-16 05:46:35 UTC
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Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
So, all that matters is what's coming out of the speakers. Either it
sounds good, or it doesn't. How is got that way is not relevant to
how good it is.
Do you figure if you keep repeating this drivel, others will accept it
as fact relative to this contest?
There is nothing that says a person's votes must be based on how "good"
a record is.
Oh yes there is. The instructions for ever group are...
Post by Bill B
Please rank these from best to worst.
It doesn't say to rank them based on originality or substance, only on
how good each record is.
You define good as what comes out of the speakers. I include other factors
such as lyrics (which also come out of the speakers but which you don't
consider) and originality in the definition of good.
Show me anywhere that says that originality is part of good.
Practically every critic of every art form has been praising
originality for at least three centuries, and if we are to treat our
music with artistic seriousness, as most of us would wish, than it too
should have originality as one part of what makes it good. Do you think
tribute bands, even assuming they're talented, deserve the same acclaim
as the acts they're copying?
Post by SavoyBG
Do you also score originality as part of good when it comes to food?
Yes, definitely. Otherwise we'd still be eating hunks of meat held over
the fire with a stick and and maybe some raw root vegetables on the
side.
So, it's not possible for someone NOW to make the best ever hamburger because it's so unoriginal?
Bill B
2020-07-16 10:11:41 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
So, it's not possible for someone NOW to make the best ever hamburger because it's so unoriginal?
More drivel, and obviously a drowning man grasping for straws.
Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-16 14:09:03 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
So, all that matters is what's coming out of the speakers. Either
it
sounds good, or it doesn't. How is got that way is not relevant to
how good it is.
Do you figure if you keep repeating this drivel, others will accept it
as fact relative to this contest?
There is nothing that says a person's votes must be based on how "good"
a record is.
Oh yes there is. The instructions for ever group are...
Post by Bill B
Please rank these from best to worst.
It doesn't say to rank them based on originality or substance, only on
how good each record is.
You define good as what comes out of the speakers. I include other factors
such as lyrics (which also come out of the speakers but which you don't
consider) and originality in the definition of good.
Show me anywhere that says that originality is part of good.
Practically every critic of every art form has been praising
originality for at least three centuries, and if we are to treat our
music with artistic seriousness, as most of us would wish, than it too
should have originality as one part of what makes it good. Do you think
tribute bands, even assuming they're talented, deserve the same acclaim
as the acts they're copying?
Post by SavoyBG
Do you also score originality as part of good when it comes to food?
Yes, definitely. Otherwise we'd still be eating hunks of meat held over
the fire with a stick and and maybe some raw root vegetables on the
side.
So, it's not possible for someone NOW to make the best ever hamburger because it's so unoriginal?
Since it would take innovative spicing and cooking method, and maybe
meat choice, to make the best hamburger ever, I would consider it
original. Just as I would praise the unknown cook who first decided to
toss a slice of cheese on the meat.
--
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SavoyBG
2020-07-16 05:48:04 UTC
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Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
So, all that matters is what's coming out of the speakers. Either it
sounds good, or it doesn't. How is got that way is not relevant to
how good it is.
Do you figure if you keep repeating this drivel, others will accept it
as fact relative to this contest?
There is nothing that says a person's votes must be based on how "good"
a record is.
Oh yes there is. The instructions for ever group are...
Post by Bill B
Please rank these from best to worst.
It doesn't say to rank them based on originality or substance, only on
how good each record is.
You define good as what comes out of the speakers. I include other factors
such as lyrics (which also come out of the speakers but which you don't
consider) and originality in the definition of good.
Show me anywhere that says that originality is part of good.
Practically every critic of every art form has been praising
originality for at least three centuries, and if we are to treat our
music with artistic seriousness, as most of us would wish, than it too
should have originality as one part of what makes it good. Do you think
tribute bands, even assuming they're talented, deserve the same acclaim
as the acts they're copying?
Here's another one I prefer over the original version.


SavoyBG
2020-07-16 05:51:39 UTC
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Here's a tribute to Bessie Smith that I prefer to Bessie's version. I also prefer it to Billie Holiday's version.



I also prefer this tribute to the Louis Jordan original.


DianeE
2020-07-16 11:58:35 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Here's a tribute to Bessie Smith that I prefer to Bessie's version. I also prefer it to Billie Holiday's version.
http://youtu.be/41vw48G7eS8
I also prefer this tribute to the Louis Jordan original.
http://youtu.be/v_tcBVXnCU4
-------------
The fact that *you* prefer it does not mean *I* have to prefer it!
SavoyBG
2020-07-16 12:44:03 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Here's a tribute to Bessie Smith that I prefer to Bessie's version. I also prefer it to Billie Holiday's version.
http://youtu.be/41vw48G7eS8
I also prefer this tribute to the Louis Jordan original.
http://youtu.be/v_tcBVXnCU4
-------------
The fact that *you* prefer it does not mean *I* have to prefer it!
Clearly.
DianeE
2020-07-16 12:59:10 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Here's a tribute to Bessie Smith that I prefer to Bessie's version. I also prefer it to Billie Holiday's version.
http://youtu.be/41vw48G7eS8
I also prefer this tribute to the Louis Jordan original.
http://youtu.be/v_tcBVXnCU4
------
I have a folder with many "original versions" of hits or well-known
songs. In most cases, they do not sound better than the well-known
version. If we're going to be honest about "originality," we have to
take that into account.
Bill B
2020-07-16 13:04:49 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
------
I have a folder with many "original versions" of hits or well-known
songs. In most cases, they do not sound better than the well-known
version. If we're going to be honest about "originality," we have to
take that into account.
I do, and I assume Mark does too.
Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-16 14:25:30 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by Roger Ford
------
I have a folder with many "original versions" of hits or well-known
songs. In most cases, they do not sound better than the well-known
version. If we're going to be honest about "originality," we have to
take that into account.
I do, and I assume Mark does too.
Of course I do. As I said, artists steal. I can name dozens of Ray
Charles songs, for example, that I like better than the originals.
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Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-16 14:22:34 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Here's a tribute to Bessie Smith that I prefer to Bessie's version. I also
prefer it to Billie Holiday's version.
http://youtu.be/41vw48G7eS8
I also prefer this tribute to the Louis Jordan original.
http://youtu.be/v_tcBVXnCU4
------
I have a folder with many "original versions" of hits or well-known
songs. In most cases, they do not sound better than the well-known
version. If we're going to be honest about "originality," we have to
take that into account.
Part of the problem we have here is that recording techniques and
media kept improving for most of the century so, yes, Lavern's
"Pigfoot" may "sound" better than Bessie's, and Thorogood's stereo
"Who Do You Love" may "sound" better than Bo's mono, but that's merely
a matter of technology, not performance.
--
--md
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SavoyBG
2020-07-16 14:36:39 UTC
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Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
Here's a tribute to Bessie Smith that I prefer to Bessie's version. I also
prefer it to Billie Holiday's version.
http://youtu.be/41vw48G7eS8
I also prefer this tribute to the Louis Jordan original.
http://youtu.be/v_tcBVXnCU4
------
I have a folder with many "original versions" of hits or well-known
songs. In most cases, they do not sound better than the well-known
version. If we're going to be honest about "originality," we have to
take that into account.
Part of the problem we have here is that recording techniques and
media kept improving for most of the century so, yes, Lavern's
"Pigfoot" may "sound" better than Bessie's, and Thorogood's stereo
"Who Do You Love" may "sound" better than Bo's mono, but that's merely
a matter of technology, not performance.
No, for me it has nothing to do with technology. Little Richard redid his hits numerous times later on with much better technology, but none of those were close to as good as the hit versions from the 50s.

And Thorogood's "Who Do You Love" barely has any separation, so the fact that it may be stereo means nothing as to why I like it better. For me it's the slide guitar and the fact that ironically he did the song with a "Bo Diddley Beat" and Bo did not.
Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-16 14:11:47 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Here's another one I prefer over the original version.
http://youtu.be/k6fGcpp3KzE
Really? For me GT is just a somewhat talented hack.
--
--md
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SavoyBG
2020-07-16 14:16:09 UTC
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Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Here's another one I prefer over the original version.
http://youtu.be/k6fGcpp3KzE
Really? For me GT is just a somewhat talented hack.
So for you, it's not possible for someone that you consider a hack to ever make a better version of any song?
Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-16 14:35:04 UTC
Reply
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Here's another one I prefer over the original version.
http://youtu.be/k6fGcpp3KzE
Really? For me GT is just a somewhat talented hack.
So for you, it's not possible for someone that you consider a hack to ever
make a better version of any song?
Of course not. Consider "Little Darling," for example. Lightning can
strike even a dedicated hack.
--
--md
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SavoyBG
2020-07-16 14:38:23 UTC
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Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Here's another one I prefer over the original version.
http://youtu.be/k6fGcpp3KzE
Really? For me GT is just a somewhat talented hack.
So for you, it's not possible for someone that you consider a hack to ever
make a better version of any song?
Of course not. Consider "Little Darling," for example. Lightning can
strike even a dedicated hack.
Okay, so I guess I think lightning strikes much more often than you do. Diane agrees, for instance, that "Gloria" is much better by the Shadows of Knight than by Them. And so did the American public.
Dennis C
2020-07-16 14:50:02 UTC
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The American public like Taylor Swift better rhan Laura Nyro,baby!!

Shit argument, Bruceth!!
DianeE
2020-07-16 15:26:10 UTC
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Post by Dennis C
The American public like Taylor Swift better rhan Laura Nyro,baby!!
-----------
So do I. Couldn't stand Laura Nyro. Unlike TS, her songs always
sounded better when sung by other people--5th Dimension, 3 Dog Night for
example.
Dennis C
2020-07-16 17:55:00 UTC
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Ya!! Wouldn't it be great if other singers would record Swift's vapid "tone poems but nobody woth their artistic salt would touch that doggerelic shit!!!
SavoyBG
2020-07-16 20:26:13 UTC
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Post by Dennis C
Ya!! Wouldn't it be great if other singers would record Swift's vapid "tone poems but nobody woth their artistic salt would touch that doggerelic shit!!!
The fact that you are even aware of anything about her songs speaks volumes.
Dennis C
2020-07-16 22:31:40 UTC
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I listen to everything!!

You should be voluminous, baby!!
RWC
2020-07-17 10:00:30 UTC
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Post by Dennis C
Ya!! Wouldn't it be great if other singers would record Swift's
vapid
- offering nothing that is stimulating or challenging; bland
Post by Dennis C
tone poems
- pieces of music which illustrate or evoke the content of a poem or
short story
Post by Dennis C
but nobody worth their artistic salt would touch that
doggerelic
doggerel - (in this context) verse which has a monotonous rhythm, easy
rhyme, and cheap or trivial meaning
Post by Dennis C
shit!!!
Thanks, old man!, for your intermediate English reawakening :-)

From time to time, even I, Geoff, have created great new words for the
wondrous English lexicon (if only I had written them down at the time
of inspiration).

If the super-ambitious Chinese (i.e. their leaders) do not take
control of planet Earth in the next 20 years, English will be the
predominant, if not only, language used in future inter-galactic
travel - folk of Angle, Saxon, or Jute (warrior farmers from
north-western Europe) extraction (such as Dennis and Jim, I presume)
can be proud.
Dennis C
2020-07-17 10:46:28 UTC
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Who cares what language is heard by those on the other side of the galaxy!!

The most important thing is what comes out of the space traveling speakers, baby!!
RWC
2020-07-18 03:41:53 UTC
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Post by Dennis C
Who cares what language is heard by those on the other side of the galaxy!!
The most important thing is what comes out of the space traveling speakers, baby!!
Vacuous, baby!

Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-16 15:30:42 UTC
Reply
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Here's another one I prefer over the original version.
http://youtu.be/k6fGcpp3KzE
Really? For me GT is just a somewhat talented hack.
So for you, it's not possible for someone that you consider a hack to ever
make a better version of any song?
Of course not. Consider "Little Darling," for example. Lightning can
strike even a dedicated hack.
Okay, so I guess I think lightning strikes much more often than you do. Diane
agrees, for instance, that "Gloria" is much better by the Shadows of Knight than by Them. And so did
the American public.
Did the Them version get any radio airplay here? I doubt it. So the
American public is irrelevant. You and Diane are, of course, entitled
to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. I like "Baby Please
Don't Go" better by Them than by Muddy Waters. So?
--
--md
_________
Remove xx's from address to reply
SavoyBG
2020-07-16 15:48:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Here's another one I prefer over the original version.
http://youtu.be/k6fGcpp3KzE
Really? For me GT is just a somewhat talented hack.
So for you, it's not possible for someone that you consider a hack to ever
make a better version of any song?
Of course not. Consider "Little Darling," for example. Lightning can
strike even a dedicated hack.
Okay, so I guess I think lightning strikes much more often than you do. Diane
agrees, for instance, that "Gloria" is much better by the Shadows of Knight than by Them. And so did
the American public.
Did the Them version get any radio airplay here? I doubt it. So the
American public is irrelevant. You and Diane are, of course, entitled
to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. I like "Baby Please
Don't Go" better by Them than by Muddy Waters. So?
That's your hypocritical whiteness coming out.
Steve Mc
2020-07-16 16:14:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Here's another one I prefer over the original version.
http://youtu.be/k6fGcpp3KzE
Really? For me GT is just a somewhat talented hack.
So for you, it's not possible for someone that you consider a hack to ever
make a better version of any song?
Of course not. Consider "Little Darling," for example. Lightning can
strike even a dedicated hack.
Okay, so I guess I think lightning strikes much more often than you do. Diane
agrees, for instance, that "Gloria" is much better by the Shadows of Knight than by Them. And so did
the American public.
Did the Them version get any radio airplay here? I doubt it. So the
American public is irrelevant. You and Diane are, of course, entitled
to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. I like "Baby Please
Don't Go" better by Them than by Muddy Waters. So?
Them's version was the hit here in the Bay Area.

I don't remember hearing the Shadpws of Night until many years later.
--
Steve Mc

DNA to SBC to respond
SavoyBG
2020-07-16 16:22:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Mc
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Here's another one I prefer over the original version.
http://youtu.be/k6fGcpp3KzE
Really? For me GT is just a somewhat talented hack.
So for you, it's not possible for someone that you consider a hack to ever
make a better version of any song?
Of course not. Consider "Little Darling," for example. Lightning can
strike even a dedicated hack.
Okay, so I guess I think lightning strikes much more often than you do. Diane
agrees, for instance, that "Gloria" is much better by the Shadows of Knight than by Them. And so did
the American public.
Did the Them version get any radio airplay here? I doubt it. So the
American public is irrelevant. You and Diane are, of course, entitled
to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. I like "Baby Please
Don't Go" better by Them than by Muddy Waters. So?
Them's version was the hit here in the Bay Area.
I don't remember hearing the Shadpws of Night until many years later.
They are not from the same time. Them was late 1964 into 1965. SOK is from mid-1966. And a much bigger national hit.
Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-16 16:55:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Mc
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Did the Them version get any radio airplay here? I doubt it. So the
American public is irrelevant. You and Diane are, of course, entitled
to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. I like "Baby Please
Don't Go" better by Them than by Muddy Waters. So?
Them's version was the hit here in the Bay Area.
I don't remember hearing the Shadpws of Night until many years later.
I guess it was regional. Shadows of Night was big in New York.
--
--md
_________
Remove xx's from address to reply
SavoyBG
2020-07-16 16:58:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by Steve Mc
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Did the Them version get any radio airplay here? I doubt it. So the
American public is irrelevant. You and Diane are, of course, entitled
to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. I like "Baby Please
Don't Go" better by Them than by Muddy Waters. So?
Them's version was the hit here in the Bay Area.
I don't remember hearing the Shadpws of Night until many years later.
I guess it was regional. Shadows of Night was big in New York.
It was big all over the country, top 10 nationally.
DianeE
2020-07-16 17:49:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Mc
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Here's another one I prefer over the original version.
http://youtu.be/k6fGcpp3KzE
Really? For me GT is just a somewhat talented hack.
So for you, it's not possible for someone that you consider a hack to ever
make a better version of any song?
Of course not. Consider "Little Darling," for example. Lightning can
strike even a dedicated hack.
Okay, so I guess I think lightning strikes much more often than you do. Diane
agrees, for instance, that "Gloria" is much better by the Shadows of
Knight than by Them. And so did
the American public.
Did the Them version get any radio airplay here? I doubt it. So the
American public is irrelevant. You and Diane are, of course, entitled
to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine.  I like "Baby Please
Don't Go" better by Them than by Muddy Waters. So?
Them's version was the hit here in the Bay Area.
I don't remember hearing the Shadpws of Night until many years later.
------------
Well, that's my whole argument about "originality"--sometimes it just
boils down to which version you heard first, and that becomes the
"right" version. In the NYC area, Them's version got little or no
airplay, and the Shadows of Knight got a lot.
DianeE
2020-07-16 17:58:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
Here's another one I prefer over the original version.
http://youtu.be/k6fGcpp3KzE
Really? For me GT is just a somewhat talented hack.
So for you, it's not possible for someone that you consider a hack to ever
make a better version of any song?
Of course not. Consider "Little Darling," for example. Lightning can
strike even a dedicated hack.
Okay, so I guess I think lightning strikes much more often than you do. Diane
agrees, for instance, that "Gloria" is much better by the Shadows of Knight than by Them. And so did
the American public.
Did the Them version get any radio airplay here? I doubt it. So the
American public is irrelevant. You and Diane are, of course, entitled
to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. I like "Baby Please
Don't Go" better by Them than by Muddy Waters. So?
----------------
You mean "Turn The Lamp Down Low" by Muddy Waters?
You're entitled to your opinion. <hiss>
SavoyBG
2020-07-15 14:48:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SavoyBG
Post by SavoyBG
Group 5 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Oh Babe - Lester Robertson
She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter
Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs
Baby Beat It - Big Duke
I understand why people like the Big Duke record, but as the saying
goes in my profession "Hacks plagiarize, artists steal," and for me the
Duke is plagiarizing.
Jim Colegrove

1. Baby Beat It - Big Duke


If the one songwriter/musician here doesn't care, you shouldn't care either.
Jim Colegrove
2020-07-16 14:49:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SavoyBG
Post by SavoyBG
Post by SavoyBG
Group 5 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Oh Babe - Lester Robertson
She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter
Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs
Baby Beat It - Big Duke
I understand why people like the Big Duke record, but as the saying
goes in my profession "Hacks plagiarize, artists steal," and for me the
Duke is plagiarizing.
Jim Colegrove
1. Baby Beat It - Big Duke
If the one songwriter/musician here doesn't care, you shouldn't care either.
Melody is, mostly, what this issue is. I have a friend, a songwriter,
that used to do a lot of work recording in Nashville. He has a story
that he's kept with him from his experience working in the studio
there. One day when he was in the studio starting to work on
describing how one of his songs went, one of the musicians asked him
"What's it the tune to?" This is, of course, self-evident in its
meaning. As I often say to folks who say to me "that sounds like..." I
remind them in western musics we have 12 tones to use and sometimes
they get repeated--endlessly. That sometimes songs seem to be
similiar, if not same, it may very well be that the case is the
writer(s) know that the melody was a huge hit and are consciously
imitiating it or working around it. Popular music was guilty of that
often and still is. Country music was even more so. Blues is so the
same it's tough to even copyright it.

Take "Shake, Rattle and Roll." It's blues. If you slow it down to a
typical slow blues tempo and change the lyrics to any other lyric that
fits the notes, you will be doing something that sounds like hundreds
of country blues artists that came before and after it. What you are
reacting to here is not so much the structure as the style and
arrangement.

Sounding like something else was desirable by many creators. The law
of copyright, used to be anyway, that if one note in the first 4 bars
was different it was not a copyright violation. I will say that many
records that are presented as contest entries here have struck my ear
as the tune to some other well known song or stongly reminded me of
one. I have noticed them but it didn't have much bearing on my vote.



Nothing is created in a vacuum. Satirists also steal but get away with
it.
SavoyBG
2020-07-16 14:56:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I will say that many records that are presented as contest entries here have struck my ear as the tune to some other well known song or strongly reminded me of one. I have noticed them but it didn't have much bearing on my vote.
And it shouldn't, unless you're a snob ala Mark and Bill. They seem to think THEY know better than an actual long time professional musician like you.
Bill B
2020-07-16 15:00:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SavoyBG
I will say that many records that are presented as contest entries here have struck my ear as the tune to some other well known song or strongly reminded me of one. I have noticed them but it didn't have much bearing on my vote.
And it shouldn't, unless you're a snob ala Mark and Bill. They seem to think THEY know better than an actual long time professional musician like you.
Didn't have much bearing" means it might have had some. To me, the more the similarity, the more the bearing.
Jim Colegrove
2020-07-16 15:16:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
I will say that many records that are presented as contest entries here have struck my ear as the tune to some other well known song or strongly reminded me of one. I have noticed them but it didn't have much bearing on my vote.
And it shouldn't, unless you're a snob ala Mark and Bill. They seem to think THEY know better than an actual long time professional musician like you.
Didn't have much bearing" means it might have had some. To me, the more the similarity, the more the bearing.
Of course, you are in charge of your point of view. I am not
challenging that. Nope, it had no bearing on my vote. I do have the
mental capacity to realize we're playing a game here not making some
decision that matters much outside of a small circle of friends.
Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-16 15:36:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SavoyBG
I will say that many records that are presented as contest entries here have
struck my ear as the tune to some other well known song or strongly reminded
me of one. I have noticed them but it didn't have much bearing on my vote.
And it shouldn't, unless you're a snob ala Mark and Bill. They seem to think
THEY know better than an actual long time professional musician like you.
Boy, you sure know how to ruin a good argument. I fully respect Jim's
knowledge but that's no reason for me or you to agree with him on
matters of taste. We both disagree with him all the time in these
contests.
--
--md
_________
Remove xx's from address to reply
SavoyBG
2020-07-16 15:51:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
I will say that many records that are presented as contest entries here have
struck my ear as the tune to some other well known song or strongly reminded
me of one. I have noticed them but it didn't have much bearing on my vote.
And it shouldn't, unless you're a snob ala Mark and Bill. They seem to think
THEY know better than an actual long time professional musician like you.
Boy, you sure know how to ruin a good argument. I fully respect Jim's
knowledge but that's no reason for me or you to agree with him on
matters of taste. We both disagree with him all the time in these
contests.
Matters of taste is very different than considering outside factors that have nothing to do with taste. If it sounds better to you, it's better. Just as if the food tastes better, it's better, whether it's original or not.
Mark Dintenfass
2020-07-16 15:37:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jim Colegrove
Post by SavoyBG
Post by SavoyBG
Post by SavoyBG
Group 5 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Oh Babe - Lester Robertson
She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter
Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs
Baby Beat It - Big Duke
I understand why people like the Big Duke record, but as the saying
goes in my profession "Hacks plagiarize, artists steal," and for me the
Duke is plagiarizing.
Jim Colegrove
1. Baby Beat It - Big Duke
If the one songwriter/musician here doesn't care, you shouldn't care either.
Melody is, mostly, what this issue is. I have a friend, a songwriter,
that used to do a lot of work recording in Nashville. He has a story
that he's kept with him from his experience working in the studio
there. One day when he was in the studio starting to work on
describing how one of his songs went, one of the musicians asked him
"What's it the tune to?" This is, of course, self-evident in its
meaning. As I often say to folks who say to me "that sounds like..." I
remind them in western musics we have 12 tones to use and sometimes
they get repeated--endlessly. That sometimes songs seem to be
similiar, if not same, it may very well be that the case is the
writer(s) know that the melody was a huge hit and are consciously
imitiating it or working around it. Popular music was guilty of that
often and still is. Country music was even more so. Blues is so the
same it's tough to even copyright it.
Take "Shake, Rattle and Roll." It's blues. If you slow it down to a
typical slow blues tempo and change the lyrics to any other lyric that
fits the notes, you will be doing something that sounds like hundreds
of country blues artists that came before and after it. What you are
reacting to here is not so much the structure as the style and
arrangement.
Sounding like something else was desirable by many creators. The law
of copyright, used to be anyway, that if one note in the first 4 bars
was different it was not a copyright violation. I will say that many
records that are presented as contest entries here have struck my ear
as the tune to some other well known song or stongly reminded me of
one. I have noticed them but it didn't have much bearing on my vote.
Nothing is created in a vacuum. Satirists also steal but get away with
it.
Thanks, Jim. The situation is much the same in the craft I know best.
--
--md
_________
Remove xx's from address to reply
Jim Colegrove
2020-07-15 14:07:10 UTC
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1. Baby Beat It - Big Duke

2. She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter

3. Oh Babe - Lester Robertson

4. Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs
DianeE
2020-07-15 14:17:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
It's all up to Rick now, but he won't be able to save his Cadillacs
record...which is a pretty good record IMO, but up against some heavy
hitters here.
Post by SavoyBG
Group 5 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Oh Babe - Lester Robertson
http://youtu.be/qLH7bmots_k
She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter
http://youtu.be/jG2E0gGgrIc
Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs
http://youtu.be/WtY-h_5CJEA
Baby Beat It - Big Duke
http://youtu.be/B55dMY6qeGc
Rick Schubert
2020-07-15 15:53:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SavoyBG
Group 5 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
1. Holy Smoke, Baby - Cadillacs
2. Baby Beat It - Big Duke
3. She's Just Old Fashioned - Goree Carter
4. Oh Babe - Lester Robertson
DianeE
2020-07-15 16:12:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Final rankings:

1. Goree Carter - 26
2. Big Duke - 24
3. Lester Robertson - 22
4. Cadillacs - 18

Lester and the Cadillacs got smoked here.
Jim's Big Duke won handily in the last round, but there seems to have
been some Dukelash today--3 last place votes--so my Goree Carter record
ends up in first place.
SavoyBG
2020-07-16 00:20:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by DianeE
1. Goree Carter - 26
2. Big Duke - 24
3. Lester Robertson - 22
4. Cadillacs - 18
Lester and the Cadillacs got smoked here.
Losing by 2 points to Big Duke is not "getting smoked."
RWC
2020-07-16 05:06:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SavoyBG
Post by DianeE
1. Goree Carter - 26
2. Big Duke - 24
3. Lester Robertson - 22
4. Cadillacs - 18
Lester and the Cadillacs got smoked here.
Losing by 2 points to Big Duke is not "getting smoked."
If just 3 voters had ranked Robertson just 1 position higher, he would
have come 2nd.

Looking at some Round results, I'm thinking that there *may* be a halo
effect with some voters - meaning there's a subconscious bias towards
'name' artists v. relatively obscure artists.

It may also pay to keep one's head down and not to be a
'controversial' voter :-)

Also, observed in several rounds, unless one can nominate an
exceptional record like "You Are" by Nolan Strong (and even that came
2nd to Arthur Gunter), there's a distinct bias towards 'heavy' (black
lives matter) r&b versus a lighter 'widely popular' r&b, in this
electorate:

for example, the Lester Robertson song in this round is a popular, for
most whites I imagine, dynamic 'Little Richard Upsetter' type of
sound,

but two white guys here, would you believe, placed it last,
preferring, and placing first, a record with an *ugly raspy* (black
lives matter) lead vocal (the Cadillacs).
DianeE
2020-07-16 18:16:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by SavoyBG
Post by DianeE
1. Goree Carter - 26
2. Big Duke - 24
3. Lester Robertson - 22
4. Cadillacs - 18
Lester and the Cadillacs got smoked here.
Losing by 2 points to Big Duke is not "getting smoked."
----------
The name of the Cadillacs record is "Holy Smoke." That was the only pun
I could come up with. Feel free to make a better one!
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