Discussion:
Obscure 1950s Era Recordings - March - Semi-Finals - Group 2
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SavoyBG
2020-03-23 14:39:18 UTC
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Group 2 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.


Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor


Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight


Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters


I Can’t Refuse - The Orchids

Roger Ford
2020-03-23 14:49:14 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Group 2 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor

Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight

Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters

I Can't Refuse - The Orchids

In that order....


ROGER FORD
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SavoyBG
2020-03-23 14:56:22 UTC
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MY RANKINGS


1. Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
2. Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight
3. I Can’t Refuse - The Orchids
4. Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
Steve Mc
2020-03-23 15:47:41 UTC
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1. Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor

2. Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight

3. Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters

4. I Can’t Refuse - The Orchids
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Carl
2020-03-23 15:07:31 UTC
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1. I Can’t Refuse - The Orchids
2. Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
3. Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
4. Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight
DianeE
2020-03-23 15:16:57 UTC
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1-Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
2-Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
3-Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight
4-I Can’t Refuse - The Orchids
Mark Dintenfass
2020-03-23 15:24:32 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Group 2 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
I Can¹t Refuse - The Orchids
Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight

So, Bruce, if I just listen to what comes out of the speakers, am I
supposed to somehow forget that "Nothing But Money" does nothing that
"Shake Rattle and Roll" doesn't do ten times better?
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Dennis C
2020-03-23 15:56:39 UTC
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Great point, Professor!!

That's the very thing that dimmed its appeal for me!!
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 17:18:33 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by SavoyBG
Group 2 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
I Canšt Refuse - The Orchids
Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight
So, Bruce, if I just listen to what comes out of the speakers, am I
supposed to somehow forget that "Nothing But Money" does nothing that
"Shake Rattle and Roll" doesn't do ten times better?
100%. All that matters is what you hear and how much you like or don't like it. When it was recorded, who it's by, and everything else that have nothing to do with what you hear are all 100% irrelevant.

But to play your game, if "Nothing But Money" was recorded BEFORE "Shake, Rattle And Roll," does that mean that its rating goes up and "Shake, Rattle And Roll's" rating goes down?

If so that is preposterous.

Both records are from 1954, so the Jessie Knight could have been recorded BEFORE "Shake, Rattle And Roll." I don't see a review for it, so I'm not sure, but there's something very wrong if you would adjust your rating based on which record inspired the other IMO.
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 17:23:30 UTC
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FINAL RANKINGS


1. Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor - 28
2. Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters - 25

3. I Can’t Refuse - The Orchids - 19
4. Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight - 18
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 17:25:21 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
FINAL RANKINGS
1. Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor - 28
2. Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters - 25
3. I Can’t Refuse - The Orchids - 19
4. Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight - 18
My Eddie Taylor wins the group, and surprisingly Diane;'s Midnighters record easily takes second place. Carl's Orchids and Roger's Jessie Knight go hom.

So me and Diane join Carl and Roger with one record apiece in the FINAL FOUR tomorrow!
DianeE
2020-03-23 18:33:41 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by SavoyBG
FINAL RANKINGS
1. Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor - 28
2. Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters - 25
3. I Can’t Refuse - The Orchids - 19
4. Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight - 18
My Eddie Taylor wins the group, and surprisingly Diane;'s Midnighters record easily takes second place. Carl's Orchids and Roger's Jessie Knight go hom.
So me and Diane join Carl and Roger with one record apiece in the FINAL FOUR tomorrow!
-----------
For a while there I thought it would be 3 for Carl and 1 for anyone else!
Carl
2020-03-23 18:56:03 UTC
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I was hoping. But I’m extremely happy after only having one record in the top 8 over the past year just seeing three more make it.
Roger Ford
2020-03-23 21:51:25 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
=20
Post by SavoyBG
Group 2 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
=20
=20
Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
I Can=C5=A1t Refuse - The Orchids
Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight
=20
So, Bruce, if I just listen to what comes out of the speakers, am I
supposed to somehow forget that "Nothing But Money" does nothing that
"Shake Rattle and Roll" doesn't do ten times better?
100%. All that matters is what you hear and how much you like or don't like=
it. When it was recorded, who it's by, and everything else that have nothi=
ng to do with what you hear are all 100% irrelevant.
But to play your game, if "Nothing But Money" was recorded BEFORE "Shake, R=
attle And Roll," does that mean that its rating goes up and "Shake, Rattle =
And Roll's" rating goes down?
If so that is preposterous.
Both records are from 1954, so the Jessie Knight could have been recorded B=
EFORE "Shake, Rattle And Roll." I don't see a review for it, so I'm not sur=
e, but there's something very wrong if you would adjust your rating based o=
n which record inspired the other IMO.
Joe Turner recorded "Shake Rattle And Roll" in New York City on
February 15 1954

Ike Turner & His Band (with Jessie Knight fronting as credited artist)
recorded "Nothing But Money" at WROX radio station,Clarksdale,
Mississippi just ONE WEEK later on February 22 1954

But "Shake Rattle And Roll" wasn't released until the beginning of
April that year (named as a new release in "Cash Box" dated April 10
p.39)

Hmmmmm......

ROGER FORD
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SavoyBG
2020-03-23 22:21:21 UTC
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Post by Roger Ford
Post by SavoyBG
=20
Post by SavoyBG
Group 2 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
=20
=20
Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
I Can=C5=A1t Refuse - The Orchids
Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight
=20
So, Bruce, if I just listen to what comes out of the speakers, am I
supposed to somehow forget that "Nothing But Money" does nothing that
"Shake Rattle and Roll" doesn't do ten times better?
100%. All that matters is what you hear and how much you like or don't like=
it. When it was recorded, who it's by, and everything else that have nothi=
ng to do with what you hear are all 100% irrelevant.
But to play your game, if "Nothing But Money" was recorded BEFORE "Shake, R=
attle And Roll," does that mean that its rating goes up and "Shake, Rattle =
And Roll's" rating goes down?
If so that is preposterous.
Both records are from 1954, so the Jessie Knight could have been recorded B=
EFORE "Shake, Rattle And Roll." I don't see a review for it, so I'm not sur=
e, but there's something very wrong if you would adjust your rating based o=
n which record inspired the other IMO.
Joe Turner recorded "Shake Rattle And Roll" in New York City on
February 15 1954
Ike Turner & His Band (with Jessie Knight fronting as credited artist)
recorded "Nothing But Money" at WROX radio station,Clarksdale,
Mississippi just ONE WEEK later on February 22 1954
But "Shake Rattle And Roll" wasn't released until the beginning of
April that year (named as a new release in "Cash Box" dated April 10
p.39)
Great research Roger. Kinda kills what Mark and Dennis are claiming when Knight's recording was done many weeks before Turner's record was even released. As I said, taking that stance that Mark is boxes you in based on your knowledge or lack of knowledge. In this case it's clear that Knight had never heard "Shake, Rattle And Roll" until after he made his recording.

ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHAT'S COMING OUT OF THE SPEAKERS!
Dennis C
2020-03-24 00:09:02 UTC
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Al I can say is you got some fucked up speakers, baby!!
Mark Dintenfass
2020-03-24 13:35:03 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
But to play your game, if "Nothing But Money" was recorded BEFORE "Shake,
Rattle And Roll," does that mean that its rating goes up and "Shake, Rattle
And Roll's" rating goes down?
If so that is preposterous.
Both records are from 1954, so the Jessie Knight could have been recorded
BEFORE "Shake, Rattle And Roll." I don't see a review for it, so I'm not
sure, but there's something very wrong if you would adjust your rating based
on which record inspired the other IMO.
What's preposterous is that you think it shouldn't matter that you
already know Joe Turner's record before you hear Jessie's, which has
nothing to do with recording dates. I, and I bet most other people,
simply can't hear the Knight record NOW without immediately hearing
Turner's record, one of the very greatest recordings the 50s, and
thinking that Knight sounds very weak in comparison. Maybe you have
some part of your brain that can judge a record without thinking of
other things at all, but most people don't have that extraordinary
capacity, nor would they want to, since many of the pleasures of music
involve how many different thoughts and sensations a particular record
can invoke.
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SavoyBG
2020-03-24 14:19:17 UTC
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Post by Mark Dintenfass
Post by SavoyBG
But to play your game, if "Nothing But Money" was recorded BEFORE "Shake,
Rattle And Roll," does that mean that its rating goes up and "Shake, Rattle
And Roll's" rating goes down?
If so that is preposterous.
Both records are from 1954, so the Jessie Knight could have been recorded
BEFORE "Shake, Rattle And Roll." I don't see a review for it, so I'm not
sure, but there's something very wrong if you would adjust your rating based
on which record inspired the other IMO.
What's preposterous is that you think it shouldn't matter that you
already know Joe Turner's record before you hear Jessie's, which has
nothing to do with recording dates. I, and I bet most other people,
simply can't hear the Knight record NOW without immediately hearing
Turner's record,
I think you'd lose that bet, given that even Diane never thought about "Shake, Rattle And Roll" when she heard the Jessie Knight until we started the conversation in this thread.

We have very opposite reactions to this kind of thing. You and Bill see it as a negative. I see it AS A gigantic positive if a record sounds like "Shake, Rattle And Roll" by Joe Turner.

So, your stance is now that even if Jessie Knight's record has been before Turner's record, and Turner had copied Knight, you'd still rate Knight lower because it sounds like the Turner. I don't think even Bill agrees with that cockamamie stance.
Mark Dintenfass
2020-03-24 14:53:26 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
So, your stance is now that even if Jessie Knight's record has been before
Turner's record, and Turner had copied Knight, you'd still rate Knight lower
because it sounds like the Turner. I don't think even Bill agrees with that
cockamamie stance.
My stance has been clearly stated and I won't repeat myself despite
your misunderstanding me. I can add that I may like a record more or
less on different days which his why I only "rate" them when I'm in
contests like this one. Likes and dislikes can change not only over
long periods of time but from day to day as our moods change.
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SavoyBG
2020-03-23 17:29:02 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by SavoyBG
Group 2 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
I Canšt Refuse - The Orchids
Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight
So, Bruce, if I just listen to what comes out of the speakers, am I
supposed to somehow forget that "Nothing But Money" does nothing that
"Shake Rattle and Roll" doesn't do ten times better?
Another HUGE problem with your take here is that it also comes down to the knowledge of the listener. If a record sounds like a prior record, but you are not familiar with the prior record, then you don't realize this and just judge it for itself. But if it sounds like a prior record that you are familiar with, like "Shake, Rattle And Roll," now you think less of the record.

Based on your theory, I assume you are deducting from songs that Ray Charles ripped off from prior records, like "I Got A Woman" and "This Little Girl of Mine?"
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 17:34:32 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by SavoyBG
Group 2 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
I Canšt Refuse - The Orchids
Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight
So, Bruce, if I just listen to what comes out of the speakers, am I
supposed to somehow forget that "Nothing But Money" does nothing that
"Shake Rattle and Roll" doesn't do ten times better?
You got lucky, the Jessie Knight came out 2 months after the Turner. Not that it should matter in the least when judging the two recordings.

Let me ask you, do you prefer "Why Don't You Write Me" by the Feathers, or the almost exact copy of their record by the Jacks?
Dennis C
2020-03-23 18:22:58 UTC
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I don't like ripoffs and it does and should have everything to do about one's estimation of the record!!!

I betcha Big Joe Turner wasn't exactly enamored of this song either, baby!!
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 19:37:28 UTC
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Post by Dennis C
I don't like ripoffs and it does and should have everything to do about one's estimation of the record!!!
So, I ask you the same question that Dinty never answers. If you discovered that the Jessie Knight came before "Shake, Rattle And Roll, " does that mean that the Knight goes up and "Shake, Rattle And Roll" goes down?
Post by Dennis C
I betcha Big Joe Turner wasn't exactly enamored of this song either, baby!!
Joe Turner did not write the song. But if he was upset with anything it would be that Bill Haley's cover was the huge pop chart hit. Joe Turner himself did several records that are clear disciples of "Shake, Rattle And Roll." For me, ANY record that is a disciple of "Shake, Rattle And Roll" (my favorite record ever) is already halfway there to being a great record.

Sounding like "Shake, Rattle And Roll" is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Dennis C
2020-03-23 20:04:30 UTC
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Then that means you like shameless ripoffs and brazen copy cats of which you cloak in " disciple" raiments!@

It's like when Brian DePalma ripped off Hitchcock in "Dressed to Kill" and "Body Double" and glommed off Antonioni with "Blow Out" for "Blow Up"!!!
He euphamized his unoriginality with the word "homage" which is the same bullshit copout as "disciple", baby!!

In answer to your first question....yes!!
Turner would probably drop in ranking even though his voice and delivery were superior!!
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 20:28:50 UTC
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ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHAT'S COMING OUT OF THE SPEAKERS.
Bill B
2020-03-23 20:08:53 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Sounding like "Shake, Rattle And Roll" is a good thing, not a bad thing.
It's just laziness or theft. Why would you listen to a soundalike when the original is available?
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 20:27:35 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Sounding like "Shake, Rattle And Roll" is a good thing, not a bad thing.
It's just laziness or theft. Why would you listen to a soundalike when the original is available?
So, are you saying you never listen to...

Why Don't You Write Me - Jacks
You Cheated - Shields
White Christmas - Drifters
Sunday Kind of Love - Harptones
Adorable - Drifters


Many times the soundalike sounds better than the original. "Stranded In The Jungle," for instance. The Cadets "soundalike" is much better than the Jayhawks original IMO. Same with many other records.

I don't care at all if a record is stolen from another record, credited or not. All I care about is what I hear coming out of the speakers. Which one came first is not AT ALL relevant to which one sounds better IMO.
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 20:33:39 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Sounding like "Shake, Rattle And Roll" is a good thing, not a bad thing.
It's just laziness or theft. Why would you listen to a soundalike when the original is available?
Have you dropped "Folsom Prison Blues" in your opinion since Cash blatantly stole it from this, claiming that he wrote the song?


Bill B
2020-03-23 20:51:54 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Sounding like "Shake, Rattle And Roll" is a good thing, not a bad thing.
It's just laziness or theft. Why would you listen to a soundalike when the original is available?
Have you dropped "Folsom Prison Blues" in your opinion since Cash blatantly stole it from this, claiming that he wrote the song?
http://youtu.be/T3M3Igjnbhs
Yes, I have. But I still prefer the Cash.
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 21:00:20 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Sounding like "Shake, Rattle And Roll" is a good thing, not a bad thing.
It's just laziness or theft. Why would you listen to a soundalike when the original is available?
Have you dropped "Folsom Prison Blues" in your opinion since Cash blatantly stole it from this, claiming that he wrote the song?
http://youtu.be/T3M3Igjnbhs
Yes, I have. But I still prefer the Cash.
So you admit, that what you like is far more important than which one came first. Same way I feel.
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 20:36:33 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Sounding like "Shake, Rattle And Roll" is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Why would you listen to a soundalike when the original is available?
Because I care which one sounds better, not which one was first.

Do you only listen to "Why Don't You Write Me" by the Feathers, but never listen to the Jacks version?
Bill B
2020-03-23 20:51:50 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Sounding like "Shake, Rattle And Roll" is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Why would you listen to a soundalike when the original is available?
Because I care which one sounds better, not which one was first.
Do you only listen to "Why Don't You Write Me" by the Feathers, but never listen to the Jacks version?
Two different things. In the case of Shake, Rattle & Roll, you prefer the original, so why listen to a soundalike that doesn't measure up? In the case of the Jacks, I prefer the soundalike, though it suffers in my esteem for being a cover.
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 20:54:38 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Sounding like "Shake, Rattle And Roll" is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Why would you listen to a soundalike when the original is available?
Because I care which one sounds better, not which one was first.
Do you only listen to "Why Don't You Write Me" by the Feathers, but never listen to the Jacks version?
Two different things. In the case of Shake, Rattle & Roll, you prefer the original, so why listen to a soundalike that doesn't measure up?
In the case of the Jacks, I prefer the soundalike,

Why would you listen to a soundalike when the original is available?
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 20:59:32 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Sounding like "Shake, Rattle And Roll" is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Why would you listen to a soundalike when the original is available?
Because I care which one sounds better, not which one was first.
Do you only listen to "Why Don't You Write Me" by the Feathers, but never listen to the Jacks version?
Two different things. In the case of Shake, Rattle & Roll, you prefer the original, so why listen to a soundalike that doesn't measure up?
So, If a record doesn't measure up to (what I think is) the greatest record ever made, I shouldn't listen to it?

My favorite record on Savoy is a "Shake, Rattle And Roll" disciple, and it's also a cover of the original version of the song.



The Savoy record is among my 100 favorite records of all time. But according to you, I shouldn't listen to it because it's similar to, and not as good as, my #1 record of all time.
Mark Dintenfass
2020-03-24 13:42:50 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
So, If a record doesn't measure up to (what I think is) the greatest record
ever made, I shouldn't listen to it?
Of course not. I like quite a few covers and remakes better than the
originals. Once again, what I'm talking about has nothing to do with
recording or release dates.
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DianeE
2020-03-23 21:08:08 UTC
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Post by Bill B
Post by SavoyBG
Sounding like "Shake, Rattle And Roll" is a good thing, not a bad thing.
It's just laziness or theft. Why would you listen to a soundalike when the original is available?
------------
Sometimes it's just more of a good thing. After all it was almost de
rigueur in the 1950s for an artist to record "Part Two" after they had a
hit.
Mark Dintenfass
2020-03-24 13:38:27 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Post by SavoyBG
Post by SavoyBG
Group 2 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
I Can?t Refuse - The Orchids
Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight
So, Bruce, if I just listen to what comes out of the speakers, am I
supposed to somehow forget that "Nothing But Money" does nothing that
"Shake Rattle and Roll" doesn't do ten times better?
You got lucky, the Jessie Knight came out 2 months after the Turner. Not that
it should matter in the least when judging the two recordings.
Let me ask you, do you prefer "Why Don't You Write Me" by the Feathers, or
the almost exact copy of their record by the Jacks?
I explained in my previous post why recording and release dates have
nothing to do with my point.
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Rick Schubert
2020-03-23 15:53:05 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Group 2 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
1. I Can’t Refuse - The Orchids
2. Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
3. Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight
4. Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
Dennis C
2020-03-23 15:54:45 UTC
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1- Midnighters( Hey Geoff!! Cause Ballard is the dude, brotha!!)

2- Orchids

3- Eddie Taylor

4- Jessie Knight
Jim Colegrove
2020-03-23 16:14:10 UTC
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1. Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor

2. Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters

3. Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight

4. I Can’t Refuse - The Orchids
RWC
2020-03-23 16:35:49 UTC
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Post by SavoyBG
Group 2 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
1) Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
http://youtu.be/oYWJDzqERKw
2) Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight
http://youtu.be/os2p5li7K5I
3) Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
http://youtu.be/ZFownSAVS9Q
4) I Can’t Refuse - The Orchids
http://youtu.be/yrIwGa_8KoA
Items 2, 3, and 4 above all have appealing hooks.
A difficult choice.

What I can say with confidence, is that a general white audience would place
"Bigtown Playboy" by Eddie Taylor, a distant last.


Geoff
SavoyBG
2020-03-23 17:21:36 UTC
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Post by RWC
Post by SavoyBG
Group 2 is now open. Please rank these from best to worst.
1) Big Town Playboy - Eddie Taylor
http://youtu.be/oYWJDzqERKw
2) Nothing But Money - Jessie Knight
http://youtu.be/os2p5li7K5I
3) Ooh Bah Baby - Midnighters
http://youtu.be/ZFownSAVS9Q
4) I Can’t Refuse - The Orchids
http://youtu.be/yrIwGa_8KoA
Items 2, 3, and 4 above all have appealing hooks.
A difficult choice.
What I can say with confidence, is that a general white audience would place
"Bigtown Playboy" by Eddie Taylor, a distant last.
I doubt that. Jimmy Reed was very popular with whites and he is on the record and it sounds like his records.
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