National anthem again

[DianeE]

I have a thing for acappella harmony versions of the U.S. national
anthem, I guess. Here's one I heard last night. I don't like the
ending but the rest of it is flawless.

[Bruce]

Post by DianeE
I have a thing for acappella harmony versions of the U.S. national
anthem, I guess. Here's one I heard last night. I don't like the
ending but the rest of it is flawless.
http://youtu.be/QagwZLZmVak

FUCK the national anthem, it was written by a slave owner.

[bbug]

Post by Bruce
FUCK the national anthem, it was written by a slave owner.

So now it's not what comes out of the speakers. It's whether the writer
meets your moral standards.

This can't be anything other than a return to your days of widespread
trolling.

[Bruce]

Post by bbug

Post by Bruce
FUCK the national anthem, it was written by a slave owner.

So now it's not what comes out of the speakers. It's whether the writer
meets your moral standards.

My moral standards have nothing to do with my evaluation of a musical
piece. I still like some renditions of the song, like Marvin Gaye from
the NBA all star game, but I'll never stand for the anthem because of
who wrote it, among other reasons. I don't get all this "love your
country" talk in general. Very few of us have ever lived in more than
one country, let alone a lot of countries where we can give an informed
opinion as to which country is the best.

Roger has lived in the UK and the USA, so he could tell us which he
prefers and why. A country, a state, a city, a town, etc.. is just a
place where you live in my mind. I'm positive there are other places I
could live that I would like more than where I live now. I'm just not
willing to pick up and move to find out.

I would think that someone like you who does care about lyrics and other
things aside from what's coming out of the speakers would have a problem
with a slave owner calling his country "the land of the free."

[DianeE]

Post by bbug

Post by Bruce
FUCK the national anthem, it was written by a slave owner.

So now it's not what comes out of the speakers. It's whether the writer
meets your moral standards.
This can't be anything other than a return to your days of widespread
trolling.

----------
Of course it is. It comes from the man who passionately defends
listening to Charles Manson, who, besides being a multiple murderer,
could be accused with some justification of owning slaves.

[Bruce]

Post by DianeE

Post by bbug

Post by Bruce
FUCK the national anthem, it was written by a slave owner.

So now it's not what comes out of the speakers. It's whether the writer
meets your moral standards.
This can't be anything other than a return to your days of widespread
trolling.

----------
Of course it is. It comes from the man who passionately defends
listening to Charles Manson, who, besides being a multiple murderer,
could be accused with some justification of owning slaves.

It's not trolling at all. I've already explained that I have no
objection to what "The Star Spangled Banner" sounds like. I only have a
problem with people wanting me to show reverence when it is played. I
like a couple of Manson's songs, and the Beach Boys liked at least one
of them, which they recorded after they changed the title and Dennis
took the writing credits....I guess he paid Charlie for the right to do
that.

Diane, would you stop listening to Howlin' Wolf if you found out that he
really did kill someone, and maybe even more than one? No doubt there
are records that you like by people who were murderers and did not get
caught.

[DianeE]

Post by Bruce

Post by DianeE

Post by bbug

Post by Bruce
FUCK the national anthem, it was written by a slave owner.

So now it's not what comes out of the speakers. It's whether the writer
meets your moral standards.
This can't be anything other than a return to your days of widespread
trolling.

----------
Of course it is.  It comes from the man who passionately defends
listening to Charles Manson, who, besides being a multiple murderer,
could be accused with some justification of owning slaves.

It's not trolling at all. I've already explained that I have no
objection to what "The Star Spangled Banner" sounds like. I only have a
problem with people wanting me to show reverence when it is played. I
like a couple of Manson's songs, and the Beach Boys liked at least one
of them, which they recorded after they changed the title and Dennis
took the writing credits....I guess he paid Charlie for the right to do
that.
Diane, would you stop listening to Howlin' Wolf if you found out that he
really did kill someone, and maybe even more than one? No doubt there
are records that you like by people who were murderers and did not get
caught.

----------------
Well, I listen to Little Willie John, and he killed someone, but you're
the one who's bitching and moaning about the national anthem being
written by a slaveowner. BTW, that only applies to the lyrics. The
music was an old British drinking song, not written by a slaveowner, so
by your logic you ought to stand up and take your hat off when an
instrumental version of it is played, as at the Olympics.

[Bruce]

Post by DianeE

Post by Bruce

Post by DianeE

Post by bbug

Post by Bruce
FUCK the national anthem, it was written by a slave owner.

So now it's not what comes out of the speakers. It's whether the writer
meets your moral standards.
This can't be anything other than a return to your days of widespread
trolling.

----------
Of course it is.  It comes from the man who passionately defends
listening to Charles Manson, who, besides being a multiple murderer,
could be accused with some justification of owning slaves.

It's not trolling at all. I've already explained that I have no
objection to what "The Star Spangled Banner" sounds like. I only have a
problem with people wanting me to show reverence when it is played. I
like a couple of Manson's songs, and the Beach Boys liked at least one
of them, which they recorded after they changed the title and Dennis
took the writing credits....I guess he paid Charlie for the right to do
that.
Diane, would you stop listening to Howlin' Wolf if you found out that he
really did kill someone, and maybe even more than one? No doubt there
are records that you like by people who were murderers and did not get
caught.

----------------
Well, I listen to Little Willie John, and he killed someone, but you're
the one who's bitching and moaning about the national anthem being
written by a slaveowner. BTW, that only applies to the lyrics. The
music was an old British drinking song, not written by a slaveowner, so
by your logic you ought to stand up and take your hat off when an
instrumental version of it is played, as at the Olympics.

I wouldn't stand for the anthem even before I knew that Key was a slave
owner. I just don't get this thing about thinking that the place that
you live or are from is special and must be honored and revered.

[DianeE]

Post by Bruce

Post by DianeE

Post by Bruce

Post by DianeE

Post by bbug

Post by Bruce
FUCK the national anthem, it was written by a slave owner.

So now it's not what comes out of the speakers. It's whether the writer
meets your moral standards.
This can't be anything other than a return to your days of widespread
trolling.

----------
Of course it is.  It comes from the man who passionately defends
listening to Charles Manson, who, besides being a multiple murderer,
could be accused with some justification of owning slaves.

It's not trolling at all. I've already explained that I have no
objection to what "The Star Spangled Banner" sounds like. I only have a
problem with people wanting me to show reverence when it is played. I
like a couple of Manson's songs, and the Beach Boys liked at least one
of them, which they recorded after they changed the title and Dennis
took the writing credits....I guess he paid Charlie for the right to do
that.
Diane, would you stop listening to Howlin' Wolf if you found out that he
really did kill someone, and maybe even more than one? No doubt there
are records that you like by people who were murderers and did not get
caught.

----------------
Well, I listen to Little Willie John, and he killed someone, but you're
the one who's bitching and moaning about the national anthem being
written by a slaveowner.  BTW, that only applies to the lyrics.  The
music was an old British drinking song, not written by a slaveowner, so
by your logic you ought to stand up and take your hat off when an
instrumental version of it is played, as at the Olympics.

I wouldn't stand for the anthem even before I knew that Key was a slave
owner. I just don't get this thing about thinking that the place that
you live or are from is special and must be honored and revered.

---------------
Okay, let's review here.
I post a link to a version of the anthem that I very much enjoyed
listening to.

You respond "FUCK the national anthem, it was written by a slave owner."

*Then* you say you have no objection to what it sounds like, you only
have a problem with people wanting you to show reverence.
Well, nobody asked you to show reverence. I said I liked this version,
I didn't say "Stand up, take your hat off, and listen to it." I said I
enjoyed listening to it and you said "FUCK the national anthem, it was
written by a slave owner."

Or did you say "Covfefe?" Just as meaningful.

[Bruce]

Post by DianeE

Post by Bruce

Post by DianeE

Post by Bruce

Post by DianeE

Post by bbug

Post by Bruce
FUCK the national anthem, it was written by a slave owner.

So now it's not what comes out of the speakers. It's whether the writer
meets your moral standards.
This can't be anything other than a return to your days of widespread
trolling.

----------
Of course it is.  It comes from the man who passionately defends
listening to Charles Manson, who, besides being a multiple murderer,
could be accused with some justification of owning slaves.

It's not trolling at all. I've already explained that I have no
objection to what "The Star Spangled Banner" sounds like. I only have a
problem with people wanting me to show reverence when it is played. I
like a couple of Manson's songs, and the Beach Boys liked at least one
of them, which they recorded after they changed the title and Dennis
took the writing credits....I guess he paid Charlie for the right to do
that.
Diane, would you stop listening to Howlin' Wolf if you found out that he
really did kill someone, and maybe even more than one? No doubt there
are records that you like by people who were murderers and did not get
caught.

----------------
Well, I listen to Little Willie John, and he killed someone, but you're
the one who's bitching and moaning about the national anthem being
written by a slaveowner.  BTW, that only applies to the lyrics.  The
music was an old British drinking song, not written by a slaveowner, so
by your logic you ought to stand up and take your hat off when an
instrumental version of it is played, as at the Olympics.

I wouldn't stand for the anthem even before I knew that Key was a slave
owner. I just don't get this thing about thinking that the place that
you live or are from is special and must be honored and revered.

---------------
Okay, let's review here.
I post a link to a version of the anthem that I very much enjoyed
listening to.
You respond "FUCK the national anthem, it was written by a slave owner."
*Then* you say you have no objection to what it sounds like, you only
have a problem with people wanting you to show reverence.
Well, nobody asked you to show reverence. I said I liked this version,
I didn't say "Stand up, take your hat off, and listen to it." I said I
enjoyed listening to it and you said "FUCK the national anthem, it was
written by a slave owner."
Or did you say "Covfefe?" Just as meaningful.

I saw the anthem mentioned and it reminded me to mention that it was
written by a slave owner which sticks in my mind more than discussing
the Chicks version which wasn't bad.

[bbug]

Post by Bruce
I wouldn't stand for the anthem even before I knew that Key was a slave
owner. I just don't get this thing about thinking that the place that
you live or are from is special and must be honored and revered.

Standing for the national anthem does not mean you are displaying honor
and reverence should you not choose to be doing so. It is just an
indication of respect for the national flag under which you reside. And
that flag deserves respect whoever is running the government or whatever
its policies may be.

Would you burn the flag for any reason? If not, you should have no
problem standing for the anthem. The difference is merely one of degree.

[bbug]

Sing along if you want to honor or respect the anthem. Stand silently if
you don't.

[Bruce]

Post by bbug
Sing along if you want to honor or respect the anthem. Stand silently if
you don't.

I won't be standing, and I may not be quiet either.

[Bruce]

Post by bbug

Post by Bruce
I wouldn't stand for the anthem even before I knew that Key was a slave
owner. I just don't get this thing about thinking that the place that
you live or are from is special and must be honored and revered.

Standing for the national anthem does not mean you are displaying honor
and reverence should you not choose to be doing so. It is just an
indication of respect for the national flag under which you reside. And
that flag deserves respect whoever is running the government or whatever
its policies may be.

Sorry, I just don't agree that ANY piece of cloth deserves respect. The
Indians and the enslaved peoples in this land deserved a lot more
respect than any piece of cloth, and they did not get it from most of
the schmucks who revered the piece of cloth.

Post by bbug
Would you burn the flag for any reason?

Sure, if I was freezing in the winter in a blackout or something it
would provide a little heat for awhile. I wouldn't go out of my way to
burn it. If I found one in my attic left here by the former owners of
the house I would just toss it in the garbage.

[bbug]

So you're not proud to be an American. Are you at lease glad? Can you
think of another country you might be happier in?

[Bruce]

Post by bbug
So you're not proud to be an American.

I don't see why it should have anything to do with pride. I happened to
be born here.

Post by bbug
Are you at lease glad?

I guess, it's a lot better than being in most of the other countries
where it's not that safe and they have some crazy laws.

Post by bbug
Can you think of another country you might be happier in?

Well I'm not willing to have to learn another language at this point in
my life, so I guess that leaves Australia, New Zealand, Canada, England
and a few others. I'm not likely to be killed in one of these mass
shootings that the USA specializes in since I don't even leave the house
much, but that would be a factor for many other people. I'd say one of
the biggest problems with the US is the lack of income equality. We have
many billionaires, and millions of millionaires, but also tons of very
poor people.

The numbers tell us that residents of several other countries live
happier lives than than we do here. These are the Top 10 countries where
the citizens are the most happiest in 2024. We don't even make the top
10, Bill. The list comes from the World Population Review. I gather that
it is based on surveys of citizens from each country.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-countries-in-the-world

Finland 7.74
Denmark 7.58
Iceland 7.53
Sweden 7.34
Israel 7.34
Netherlands 7.32
Norway 7.30
Luxembourg 7.12
Australia 7.06
Switzerland 7.06

This list below comes from Forbes. We are not in the top 20.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2024/03/19/ranked-the-20-happiest-countries-in-the-world-in-2024/

World’s 20 Happiest Countries In 2024.

Finland
Denmark
Iceland
Sweden
Israel
Netherlands
Norway
Luxembourg
Switzerland
Australia
New Zealand
Costa Rica
Kuwait
Austria
Canada
Belgium
Ireland
Czechia
Lithuania
United Kingdom

[RWC]

Post by Bruce
The numbers tell us that residents of several other countries live
happier lives than than we do here. These are the Top 10 countries where
the citizens are the most happiest in 2024. We don't even make the top
10, Bill. The list comes from the World Population Review. I gather that
it is based on surveys of citizens from each country.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/happiest-countries-in-the-world
This list below comes from Forbes. We are not in the top 20.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabegleybloom/2024/03/19/ranked-the-20-happiest-countries-in-the-world-in-2024/

It oh so depends, in most cases, on how wealthy you are.

Wealthy folk tend to lead lives quite apart from the hoi polloi.

Language aside, a multi-millionaire American might be far happier
living in the U.S.A. than in Finland or Denmark, as they can afford
local world-class healthcare, the very best education for their
children, etc, etc.

[bbug]

"It's not trolling at all. I've already explained that I have no
objection to what "The Star Spangled Banner" sounds like. I only have a
problem with people wanting me to show reverence when it is played."


I don't believe Diane was asking you to show reverence when you
commented "fuck the national anthem. It was written by a slave owner."

[Bruce]

Post by bbug
"It's not trolling at all. I've already explained that I have no
objection to what "The Star Spangled Banner" sounds like. I only have a
problem with people wanting me to show reverence when it is played."
I don't believe Diane was asking you to show reverence when you
commented "fuck the national anthem. It was written by a slave owner."

She wasn't. But when I read "National anthem" I saw RED.

[Steve Mc]

Post by DianeE
I have a thing for acappella harmony versions of the U.S. national
anthem, I guess.  Here's one I heard last night.  I don't like the
ending but the rest of it is flawless.
http://youtu.be/QagwZLZmVak

What drove me crazy, and this started quite a few years ago, and maybe
is still going on, but it seemed like anybody that sang the national
anthem would put 23 or 24 notes into almost every syllable. I guess to
try to show off their annoying chops ?

Steve Mc

DNA to SBC to respond

[DianeE]

Post by Steve Mc

Post by DianeE
I have a thing for acappella harmony versions of the U.S. national
anthem, I guess.  Here's one I heard last night.  I don't like the
ending but the rest of it is flawless.
http://youtu.be/QagwZLZmVak

What drove me crazy, and this started quite a few years ago, and maybe
is still going on, but it seemed like anybody that sang the national
anthem would put 23 or 24 notes into almost every syllable. I guess to
try to show off their annoying chops ?

--------
I believe it started with Jose Feliciano.

Anyhow the version I posted does not fit that description.

[Steve Mc]

Post by DianeE

Post by Steve Mc

Post by DianeE
I have a thing for acappella harmony versions of the U.S. national
anthem, I guess.  Here's one I heard last night.  I don't like the
ending but the rest of it is flawless.
http://youtu.be/QagwZLZmVak

What drove me crazy, and this started quite a few years ago, and
maybe is still going on, but it seemed like anybody that sang the
national anthem would put 23 or 24 notes into almost every syllable.
I guess to try to show off their annoying chops ?

--------
I believe it started with Jose Feliciano.
Anyhow the version I posted does not fit that description.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought it did.

Just the Star Spangled Banner mention made me think of that.

[Jim Colegrove]

On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 19:46:24 -0700, Steve Mc

Post by Steve Mc

Post by DianeE

Post by Steve Mc

Post by DianeE
I have a thing for acappella harmony versions of the U.S. national
anthem, I guess.  Here's one I heard last night.  I don't like the
ending but the rest of it is flawless.
http://youtu.be/QagwZLZmVak

What drove me crazy, and this started quite a few years ago, and
maybe is still going on, but it seemed like anybody that sang the
national anthem would put 23 or 24 notes into almost every syllable.
I guess to try to show off their annoying chops ?

--------
I believe it started with Jose Feliciano.
Anyhow the version I posted does not fit that description.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought it did.
Just the Star Spangled Banner mention made me think of that.

I am with your position on the excess ornament hanging on that tune.

[DianeE]

Post by Jim Colegrove
On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 19:46:24 -0700, Steve Mc

Post by Steve Mc

Post by DianeE

Post by Steve Mc

Post by DianeE
I have a thing for acappella harmony versions of the U.S. national
anthem, I guess.  Here's one I heard last night.  I don't like the
ending but the rest of it is flawless.
http://youtu.be/QagwZLZmVak

What drove me crazy, and this started quite a few years ago, and
maybe is still going on, but it seemed like anybody that sang the
national anthem would put 23 or 24 notes into almost every syllable.
I guess to try to show off their annoying chops ?

--------
I believe it started with Jose Feliciano.
Anyhow the version I posted does not fit that description.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought it did.
Just the Star Spangled Banner mention made me think of that.

I am with your position on the excess ornament hanging on that tune.

------------
Me too. IMO, Whitney Houston's much-admired version is a bravura
performance, but the song itself gets lost in there.

[bbug]

I remember being blown away by the sincerity in Jose Feliciano's
version, but I do agree with Steve's complaint about modern singers. In
fact, it drives me crazy.

[Bruce]

Post by bbug
I remember being blown away by the sincerity in Jose Feliciano's
version, but I do agree with Steve's complaint about modern singers. In
fact, it drives me crazy.

Me too. I call it "The Patti Labelle Effect."

I particularly hate it when a singer from our era starts doing it to
their old songs. UGHA once had a luncheon with the Cardinals as the
entertainment. At this time Junior Denby was in the group so they did
a couple of his Swallows songs. He sang them adding inflections that did
not occur yet when those records were made which ruined them for me.

[bbug]

It's called melisma. My first notice of it was pleasurable, Tony
Williams of the Platters in "Only You." But it didn't take long until it
was corrupted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melisma

[Bruce]

Post by bbug
It's called melisma. My first notice of it was pleasurable, Tony
Williams of the Platters in "Only You." But it didn't take long until it
was corrupted.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melisma

It's not just that, it's also when they ad lib things in between the
actual lyrics, like "oh girl," or "yes I did," or shit like that. Denby
was doing stuff like that, like he would sing "Beside You, is where I
wanna be" and then he'd ad lib "yes I do girl." or something like that.

[bbug]

Are you saying that live performances should exactly mimic the original
recordings? I have no problem with embellishing the original. Many live
recordings are better than the recorded originals, for example Johnny
Cash's "Folsom Prison Blues."

[Bruce]

Post by bbug
Are you saying that live performances should exactly mimic the original
recordings?

Yes, as closely as possible. Certain artists like Fats Domino took great
care in having his
live performances sound as close to the record as possible, which is
what most fans want. They
want it to sound like the records sound.

Post by bbug
I have no problem with embellishing the original.

I have a big problem with it.

Post by bbug
Many live recordings are better than the recorded originals, for example
Johnny
Cash's "Folsom Prison Blues."

As far as I am concerned the original Sun studio version of that is an
awesome 10, and in my top 100
favorite recordings of all time. The sped up live version from 1968 for
me is a low 7.

There are SOME live versions that I like better, but they are few and
far between, like...

Smoke On The Water - Deep Purple
Conquistador - Procol Harum
Money Honey - Elvis
Shake, Rattle And Roll - Elvis
Fine And Mellow - Billie Holiday
Sing, Sing, Sing - Benny Goodman
It's Too Late - Chuck Willis (live version has no female background
singers)
Fingertips - Stevie Wonder
Dust My Broom - Howlin' Wolf

[RWC]

Post by DianeE
I have a thing for acappella harmony versions of the U.S. national
anthem, I guess. Here's one I heard last night. I don't like the
ending but the rest of it is flawless.
http://youtu.be/QagwZLZmVak

I don't like the vocal arrangement, it often grates, making
me wince at times, it's not a harmonious three-voice sound.

for me, these acappella renditions are nice, and harmonious:

and the quartet is pleasingly ethnically diverse