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MY FAVE TOP 20 BY A VOCAL GROUP.......1950
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Roger
2024-10-28 09:18:28 UTC
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MY FAVE 20 RECORDS BY A VOCAL GROUP

TODAY........FROM 1950

1. DO SOMETHING FOR ME- THE DOMINOES


From December 1950 comes the debut of the famous Dominoes vocal group
(and the debut of the new King label subsidiary Federal Records)---and
also the debut on record of one Clyde McPhatter here singing lead on
this memorable ballad. The record sold well enough to reach #6 on the BB
r&b chart. And as if that wasn’t a great start of starts on the flipside
could be found…….

2. CHICKEN BLUES – THE DOMINOES


Yep,flip the record above over and ……voila! We have Mr Bill Brown doing
lead honors here on the rocking classic “Chicken Blues” which apparently
sold pretty well in its own right but without actually charting. A
perfect start for the Federal label!

3. LEMON SQUEEZER – THE FOUR BARONS


Hugely salacious number here performed by one Allen Bunn and a few other
guys who will soon go on to form the backbone of one of the most
respected of 1950’s r&b vocal groups—The Larks. Hooking up with Grandpa
Herman’s Savoy outfit in Newark NJ the memorable “Lemon Squeezer”
appeared on their subsid Regent label. What are the ladies’ “lemons”
referred to? Little yellow fruit of course! What on earth did you
think?

4. YOU’RE FINE BUT NOT MY KIND – THE ROBINS


Recorded February 13 1950 with a superb Bobby Nunn lead the rockin’
“You’re Fine But Not My Kind” became the latest Robins record when it
was finally released (as the flipside to “I’m Through – see entry
below”) on Savoy in that September.Hmmm...that YT poster seems kinda
familiar….now who was he??

5. COUNT EVERY STAR – THE RAVENS


Here’s the version of the oft-recorded “Count Every Star” on National
label (originally by Ray Anthony & His Orchestra earlier in this year)
most likely to be quoted by r&b fans and collectors as their favorite
version (tho my fave version remains that of the later Rockers on Carter
label in 1959 – see the earlier 1959 entry in this series for details)

6. I’M THROUGH – THE ROBINS
**

The topside (as released) of the #4 record listed above by The Robins
again features a great lead from Bobby Nunn on a cool slower ballad with
fine support from the rest of the group. Recorded at the same session as
“You’re Fine….” too and obviously the same release details

**I see several posts of this on YT but all with really low view figures
(indicating possible non-appearance on US screens). Let me know if such
is the case

7. GOT TO GO BACK AGAIN – THE FOUR BARONS


The flipside of the notorious “Lemon Squeezer” (see #3 above) and again
on Savoy’s subsid label Regent. Amazingly the Four Barons (the future
Larks) in an attempt to get a recording contract recorded FOUR sessions
on ONE day in 1950---a session each for FOUR different
companies---before Bess Berman at Apollo gave them a proper record deal

8. TURKEY HOP-PART 1 – JOHNNY OTIS/THE ROBINS


From February 1950 and also on Savoy this precedes The Robins record
already mentioned above and was recorded January 11 1950. This was an
excellent seller and whilst it didn’t make the Billboard chart it did
feature in several Cash Box regional charts so indicating its popularity
across the country

9. I WILL WAIT – THE FOUR BUDS


First issued as by “The Four Buds” this was the group better known as
“The Four Buddies” nd very soon billed that way on their records.
Which,like this one appeared on the Savoylabel (and NO I AM NOT being
paid by the Herman Lubinsky estate to include all these Savoy and Regent
records 😊). Lead Larry Harrison excels here. Charted at #2 on the
Billboard r&b chart (and yes they were “The Four Buddies” by then on
later pressings)

10. I DON’T HAVE TO RIDE NO MORE – THE RAVENS


Their record on National just before “Count Every Star” (see #5 above)
with a fabulous lead courtesy Jimmy Ricks and definitely one of the best
things The Ravens ever put out. Unlike “Count Every Star” (which
amazingly missed the BB chart entirely) this rocking effort charted and
reached #9 on their r&b chart

11. BROWN BOY – AL SEARS & THE SPARROWS


The soon to be “Big” Al Sears here with The Sparrows group and lead
Clarence Palmer on a song with quite a history---originally done in 1936
by Lil Hardin Armstrong (Satchmo’s wife) and again in 1938 by The Ink
Spots on Decca---and which has quite a future too since it will appear
in versions by Clarence Palmer & The Jive Bombers on Citation label in
1952 then again in late 1956 on Savoy (what else?) as “Little Brown Boy”
before settling down in December 1956 as the retitled “Bad Boy” it’s
most famous title and its most most famous version

12. COOL WATER – THE FOUR TUNES


One of those songs I like in several versions. Originally by Bob &
Randall Atcher and Bonnie Blue Eyes in 1940 then the famous Sons Of The
Pioneers version (1941),Red River Dave (1946) Tex Ritter & The Dinning
Sisters (1948) and Vaughn Monroe (1948) Even the Frankie Laine 1955
version I find passable. But the Four Tunes with their bluesy version
for RCA in 1950 really score on this one hence their inclusion here

13. I NEED YOU SO – THE ORIOLES


Released in September 1950 came The Orioles version of “I Need You So”
on Jubilee originally by Ivory Joe Hunter earlier in the year. As well
as The Orioles the song was also released in this year by both Dons
Cornell and Cherry in pop versions. And of course later came the most
famous version by Elvis in 1957.

14. YOUNG GIRL – THE FLAMES


This is the group that--after an unbelievable amount of twists and turns
and myriad changes in personnel---will eventually emerge as The
Hollywood Flames of “Buzz Buzz Buzz” fame. But that scenario is light
years away yet at this point in 1950 as The Flames release “Young Girl”
with David Ford lead on John Blackburn’s Selective label.

15. IS MY HEART WASTING TIME – THE ORIOLES


Sonny Til leads the boys on a fine love ballad performance here recorded
in 1949 and released in January 1950 as usual on the Jubilee label. It
appeared as the flip side of the (mis-titled) “Would You Still Be The
One In My Heart”. This was one of the first Orioles songs I ever
encountered so I guess it has something of a special place with me

16. I WONDER WHEN – THE ORIOLES


Another beautiful ballad from The Orioles with a silky smooth Sonny Til
lead backed by the Sid Bass Orchestra and recorded for Jubilee February
17 1950 in one of the first sessions to utilize the violin to back a
vocal group recognized in the r&b idiom. It’s nice to see Billboard
agreed with me in their review calling it “one of their top
performances”

17. FOUND ME A SUGAR DADDY – THE NIC-NAC’S


Johnny Otis and Little Esther really started something with their huge
“Double Crossing Blues” hit with the Robins returning here in their
secret identity as mild mannered group The Nic-Nacs to do a pretty good
re-run of the whole shebang with lovely Mickey Champion in the Esther
role and recorded for the Bihari Brothers out West and their RPM label

18. I’M SO CRAZY FOR LOVE – THE CAP-TANS


In a deal that benefited the poorly managed Cap-Tans group led by
Sherman Buckner not one jot their fine “I’m So Crazy For Love” was
farmed out to the (then) fledgling Dot label owned and operated by Randy
Wood in Gallatin,Tennessee. Tho the group never saw much money from
the deal the record certainly sold well enough locally for the much
better known Ravens group to cover the song for Columbia

19. TROUBLE IN MY HOME – THE BLUES ROCKERS


Led by James Watts this ensemble (that also featured one Willie Mabon in
its ranks) recorded the somewhat raucous (for the time)--but compelling
“Trouble In My Home” for deejay Al Benson who by convoluted means farmed
it out to the fledgling Aristocrat label in Chicago (soon to undergo a
name change to….Chess Records). There is some dispute as to whether this
is a 1950 record or a late 1949 one. I have it as early January 1950
(reviewed in BB last week in January)

20. AT NIGHT – THE ORIOLES


Another time favorite IMO is the beautiful “At Night”. And it comes from
that very first Orioles session in July 1948 that produced “It’s Too
Soon To Know” and “Barbara Lee”.It was March 1950 before it saw light of
release on Jubilee but it got a big welcome when it did arrive.Billboard
reviewed it thusly - “chalk up another hit for the high flying group.
Tune is standout. Group delivers one of their best jobs yet”

BUBBLING UNDER

21. O HOLY NIGHT – THE ORIOLES
22. GET WISE BABY – THE RAVENS
23. COOL SATURDAY NIGHT – THE STRIDERS
24. CRAZY ABOUT MY HONEY DIP – THE CAP-TANS
25. MR BLUES – THE MASTERKEYS
RWC
2024-10-28 20:05:59 UTC
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Post by Roger
MY FAVE 20 RECORDS BY A VOCAL GROUP
TODAY........FROM 1950
Playlist (20 tracks):
https://www.youtube.com/watch_videos?video_ids=5VsXDN8GbiM,xALt39HvU3I,TWhjTe9VRuY,VOPrTMEnE-E,KQB5wHk614s,4O2odDGvnw0,gxSPvNAleSA,ZUMIrUgDR4s,x13803yVSGw,BmzHPdP5daw,HClx-fISxUk,pWkknrAeLSI,i6mmotu08GY,emjoxgZwLTw,zoECX_o2Tnc,E_VAh9jSM0g,aDnBxq70uuM,lXFsNRR_73g,x76kfEpDNsw,JxNPKMgKfXs,

(I did have to find a US link for #6, as Roger half expected)

an enjoyable and moving playlist, Roger, thanks

1. DO SOMETHING FOR ME- THE DOMINOES
2. CHICKEN BLUES – THE DOMINOES
3. LEMON SQUEEZER – THE FOUR BARONS
4. YOU’RE FINE BUT NOT MY KIND – THE ROBINS
5. COUNT EVERY STAR – THE RAVENS
6. I’M THROUGH – THE ROBINS
7. GOT TO GO BACK AGAIN – THE FOUR BARONS
8. TURKEY HOP-PART 1 – JOHNNY OTIS/THE ROBINS
9. I WILL WAIT – THE FOUR BUDS
10. I DON’T HAVE TO RIDE NO MORE – THE RAVENS
11. BROWN BOY – AL SEARS & THE SPARROWS
12. COOL WATER – THE FOUR TUNES
13. I NEED YOU SO – THE ORIOLES
14. YOUNG GIRL – THE FLAMES
15. IS MY HEART WASTING TIME – THE ORIOLES
16. I WONDER WHEN – THE ORIOLES
17. FOUND ME A SUGAR DADDY – THE NIC-NAC’S
18. I’M SO CRAZY FOR LOVE – THE CAP-TANS
19. TROUBLE IN MY HOME – THE BLUES ROCKERS
20. AT NIGHT – THE ORIOLES
Bruce
2024-10-28 23:26:26 UTC
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Here is what I have.

1 ¦ Cool Water ¦ Four Tunes
I love this even more than Roger does.

2 ¦ Rock Mr. Blues ¦ Wynonie Harris
Some say the Dominoes are the group on this, but I don't think so. It
seems to have been recorded a little before Billy Ward formed the group
and started to rehearse them.

3 ¦ Double Crossing Blues ¦ Little Esther & Robins
4 ¦ Chicken Blues ¦ Dominoes
5 ¦ Do Something For Me ¦ Dominoes
6 ¦ I'm Through ¦ Robins
7 ¦ Turkey Hop ¦ Robins
8 ¦ There's No Use Begging ¦ Robins
9 ¦ Mr. Blues ¦ Masterkeys
10 ¦ Count Every Star ¦ Ravens
11 ¦ Lover's Lane Boogie ¦ Little Esther & Robins
12 ¦ Is My Heart Wasting Time ¦ Orioles
13 ¦ My Baby's Gone ¦ Ravens
14 ¦ Brown Boy ¦ Big Al Sears (Sparrows)
15 ¦ Lemon Squeezer ¦ Four Barons
16 ¦ Oh Holy Night ¦ Orioles
17 ¦ Got To Go Back Again ¦ Four Barons
18 ¦ You're Fine But Not My Kind ¦ Robins
19 ¦ Every Dog Gone Time ¦ Orioles
20 ¦ Private Property Blues ¦ Don Q & His Q Tones
21 ¦ Our Romance is Gone ¦ Robins
22 ¦ At Night ¦ Orioles
23 ¦ When You Come Back To Me ¦ Clovers
24 ¦ Gonna Have A Merry X-Mas ¦ Nic Nacs
25 ¦ I'm Living O.K. ¦ Robins
26 ¦ Down On My Knees ¦ Swan Silvertones
27 ¦ I'm So Crazy For Love ¦ Cap-Tans
28 ¦ Down Here I've Done My Best (I Want To Go To Heaven And Rest) ¦
Selah Singers
DianeE
2024-10-29 00:25:30 UTC
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Post by Bruce
Here is what I have.
1 ¦ Cool Water ¦ Four Tunes
I love this even more than Roger does.
-------------
And I detest it. I detest that song by *everyone*.

(I drink a lot of water, so it's not that.)
Bruce
2024-10-29 00:32:15 UTC
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Post by DianeE
Post by Bruce
Here is what I have.
1 ¦ Cool Water ¦ Four Tunes
I love this even more than Roger does.
-------------
And I detest it. I detest that song by *everyone*.
(I drink a lot of water, so it's not that.)
Ah, but you like it to be room temperature rather than cool!
Roger
2024-10-29 07:07:52 UTC
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Post by Bruce
Here is what I have.
1 ¦ Cool Water ¦ Four Tunes
I love this even more than Roger does.
#101 and 8
Post by Bruce
2 ¦ Rock Mr. Blues ¦ Wynonie Harris
Some say the Dominoes are the group on this, but I don't think so. It
seems to have been recorded a little before Billy Ward formed the
group and started to rehearse them.
Again it's Wynonie with a group backing him in similar fashion to an
Elvis record with the Jordanaires backing him. I don't consider these
things as bona fide vocal group records per se any more than I'd
consider Perry Como with some group on "Hot Diggity" is a vocal group
record and I'd be surprised if you do
Post by Bruce
4 ¦ Chicken Blues ¦ Dominoes
#20 -9
Post by Bruce
5 ¦ Do Something For Me ¦ Dominoes
#8 - 10
Post by Bruce
6 ¦ I'm Through ¦ Robins
#60 - 8
Post by Bruce
7 ¦ Turkey Hop ¦ Robins
#65 - 8
Post by Bruce
8 ¦ There's No Use Begging ¦ Robins
#198 - 7
Post by Bruce
9 ¦ Mr. Blues ¦ Masterkeys
#171 - 7
Post by Bruce
10 ¦ Count Every Star ¦ Ravens
#59 - 8
Post by Bruce
12 ¦ Is My Heart Wasting Time ¦ Orioles
#133 - 7
Post by Bruce
13 ¦ My Baby's Gone ¦ Ravens
#195 - 7
Post by Bruce
14 ¦ Brown Boy ¦ Big Al Sears (Sparrows)
#99 - 8
Post by Bruce
15 ¦ Lemon Squeezer ¦ Four Barons
#30 - 9
Post by Bruce
16 ¦ Oh Holy Night ¦ Orioles
#165 - 7
Post by Bruce
17 ¦ Got To Go Back Again ¦ Four Barons
#64 - 8
Post by Bruce
18 ¦ You're Fine But Not My Kind ¦ Robins
#53 - 8
Post by Bruce
19 ¦ Every Dog Gone Time ¦ Orioles
#180 - 7
Post by Bruce
20 ¦ Private Property Blues ¦ Don Q & His Q Tones
#284 - 7
Post by Bruce
21 ¦ Our Romance is Gone ¦ Robins
#271 - 7
Post by Bruce
22 ¦ At Night ¦ Orioles
#180 - 7
Post by Bruce
23 ¦ When You Come Back To Me ¦ Clovers
#176 - 7
Post by Bruce
24 ¦ Gonna Have A Merry X-Mas ¦ Nic Nacs
#252 - 7
Post by Bruce
25 ¦ I'm Living O.K. ¦ Robins
#240 - 7
Post by Bruce
26 ¦ Down On My Knees ¦ Swan Silvertones
#196 - 7
Post by Bruce
27 ¦ I'm So Crazy For Love ¦ Cap-Tans
#147 - 7
Post by Bruce
28 ¦ Down Here I've Done My Best (I Want To Go To Heaven And Rest) ¦
Selah Singers
Did not know this one. Undoubtedly at least a 7 I'll be adding it
thanks!
Bruce
2024-10-29 07:22:19 UTC
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Post by Roger
Again it's Wynonie with a group backing him in similar fashion to an
Elvis record with the Jordanaires backing him. I don't consider these
things as bona fide vocal group records per se any more than I'd
consider Perry Como with some group on "Hot Diggity" is a vocal group
record and I'd be surprised if you do.
On "Hot Diggity" it's the Ray Charles Singers and they only sing along
with Perry on the chorus, but yes, it is a vocal group record. Just not
a good one.

On this one below, despite the fact that it's the Dells, who sound
great, they are not on enough of the record for me to classify it as a
vocal group record.


Roger
2024-10-29 07:39:22 UTC
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Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Again it's Wynonie with a group backing him in similar fashion to an
Elvis record with the Jordanaires backing him. I don't consider these
things as bona fide vocal group records per se any more than I'd
consider Perry Como with some group on "Hot Diggity" is a vocal group
record and I'd be surprised if you do.
On "Hot Diggity" it's the Ray Charles Singers and they only sing along
with Perry on the chorus, but yes, it is a vocal group record. Just not
a good one.
On this one below, despite the fact that it's the Dells, who sound
great, they are not on enough of the record for me to classify it as a
vocal group record.
http://youtu.be/NhFX4efZ-7s
The Dells are backing Barbara Lewis on her glorious "Hello Stranger" too
nut again its not a vocal group record to me. Do you say it is?
Bruce
2024-10-29 15:08:58 UTC
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Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Again it's Wynonie with a group backing him in similar fashion to an
Elvis record with the Jordanaires backing him. I don't consider these
things as bona fide vocal group records per se any more than I'd
consider Perry Como with some group on "Hot Diggity" is a vocal group
record and I'd be surprised if you do.
On "Hot Diggity" it's the Ray Charles Singers and they only sing along
with Perry on the chorus, but yes, it is a vocal group record. Just not
a good one.
On this one below, despite the fact that it's the Dells, who sound
great, they are not on enough of the record for me to classify it as a
vocal group record.
http://youtu.be/NhFX4efZ-7s
The Dells are backing Barbara Lewis on her glorious "Hello Stranger" too
nut again its not a vocal group record to me. Do you say it is?
Absolutely. I listed it in your 1963 thread.

Do you not consider "The Deacon Moves In" to be a vocal group record?

What about when the record is by 2 vocal groups together such as "I'm
Gonna Make You Love Me" by the Supremes and Temptations?

How about "The Came You" by Dionne Warwick and the Spinners?

How about "I Know, I Know" by Pookie Hudson and the Imperials?
Roger
2024-10-29 20:27:03 UTC
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Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Again it's Wynonie with a group backing him in similar fashion to an
Elvis record with the Jordanaires backing him. I don't consider these
things as bona fide vocal group records per se any more than I'd
consider Perry Como with some group on "Hot Diggity" is a vocal group
record and I'd be surprised if you do.
On "Hot Diggity" it's the Ray Charles Singers and they only sing along
with Perry on the chorus, but yes, it is a vocal group record. Just
not a good one.
OK I'm surprised. It's a Perry Como record with (like others) some vocal
group backing
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
On this one below, despite the fact that it's the Dells, who sound
great, they are not on enough of the record for me to classify it as
vocal group record.
http://youtu.be/NhFX4efZ-7s
I wouldn't either but it's like the Como anyway--main artist with a
vocal group backing
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
The Dells are backing Barbara Lewis on her glorious "Hello Stranger" too
but again its not a vocal group record to me. Do you say it is?
Absolutely. I listed it in your 1963 thread.
Same sort of case as the Como.Main artist record just with a group in
the background like countless other records
Post by Bruce
Do you not consider "The Deacon Moves In" to be a vocal group record?
Yeah it bothers me a little but like the Barbara Lewis the group is not
named or credited. Yet if I had to make a Dominoes discography it should
at least be mentioned (as should the Barbara record in a Dells
discography).
Post by Bruce
What about when the record is by 2 vocal groups together such as "I'm
Gonna Make You Love Me" by the Supremes and Temptations?
No problem with that and they're equally billed anyway
Post by Bruce
How about "The Came You" by Dionne Warwick and the Spinners?
I think both get equal billing there as well don't they?
Post by Bruce
How about "I Know, I Know" by Pookie Hudson and the Imperials?
He wasn't as famous but otherwise same situation as the Como record
Bruce
2024-10-29 20:55:38 UTC
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Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Again it's Wynonie with a group backing him in similar fashion to an
Elvis record with the Jordanaires backing him. I don't consider these
things as bona fide vocal group records per se any more than I'd
consider Perry Como with some group on "Hot Diggity" is a vocal group
record and I'd be surprised if you do.
On "Hot Diggity" it's the Ray Charles Singers and they only sing along
with Perry on the chorus, but yes, it is a vocal group record. Just
not a good one.
OK I'm surprised. It's a Perry Como record with (like others) some vocal
group backing
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
On this one below, despite the fact that it's the Dells, who sound
great, they are not on enough of the record for me to classify it as
vocal group record.
http://youtu.be/NhFX4efZ-7s
I wouldn't either but it's like the Como anyway--main artist with a
vocal group backing
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
The Dells are backing Barbara Lewis on her glorious "Hello Stranger" too
but again its not a vocal group record to me. Do you say it is?
Absolutely. I listed it in your 1963 thread.
Same sort of case as the Como.Main artist record just with a group in
the background like countless other records
Post by Bruce
Do you not consider "The Deacon Moves In" to be a vocal group record?
Yeah it bothers me a little but like the Barbara Lewis the group is not
named or credited. Yet if I had to make a Dominoes discography it should
at least be mentioned (as should the Barbara record in a Dells
discography).
Post by Bruce
What about when the record is by 2 vocal groups together such as "I'm
Gonna Make You Love Me" by the Supremes and Temptations?
No problem with that and they're equally billed anyway
Post by Bruce
How about "The Came You" by Dionne Warwick and the Spinners?
I think both get equal billing there as well don't they?
Post by Bruce
How about "I Know, I Know" by Pookie Hudson and the Imperials?
He wasn't as famous but otherwise same situation as the Como record
So what you are saying is that what the recording sounds like has no
bearing on anything. The only thing that seems to matter to you comes
from how business is being done by the record label. However they decide
to list the artist(s) on the label is the sole determining factor in
whether something is a vocal group record or not.

To me there is a difference between a "vocal group record" and a record
that is "by a vocal group."

Anything with a vocal group singing for a major portion of any record is
a vocal group record in my book. Your definition of a "vocal group
record" seems to be the same thing as a record that is "by a vocal
group." I see them as 2 different things that are not mutually
exclusive. Like all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.

In this case, all records by a vocal group are also vocal group records,
but to me there are lots of vocal group records that are not "by" vocal
groups.

To me the determining factor is what I hear on the record. To you the
determining factor is based instead on business factors.

So if I was to play you a recording you never heard before that featured
group harmony you would not be able to classify it as a "vocal group
record" until you knew who was singing and what it says on the record
label. Whereas I would only have to hear the recording to make that
determination.

It strikes me as very silly to not base its classification solely on
what the recording sounds like.
Roger
2024-10-29 21:31:24 UTC
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Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Again it's Wynonie with a group backing him in similar fashion to an
Elvis record with the Jordanaires backing him. I don't consider these
things as bona fide vocal group records per se any more than I'd
consider Perry Como with some group on "Hot Diggity" is a vocal group
record and I'd be surprised if you do.
On "Hot Diggity" it's the Ray Charles Singers and they only sing along
with Perry on the chorus, but yes, it is a vocal group record. Just
not a good one.
OK I'm surprised. It's a Perry Como record with (like others) some vocal
group backing
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
On this one below, despite the fact that it's the Dells, who sound
great, they are not on enough of the record for me to classify it as
vocal group record.
http://youtu.be/NhFX4efZ-7s
I wouldn't either but it's like the Como anyway--main artist with a
vocal group backing
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
The Dells are backing Barbara Lewis on her glorious "Hello Stranger" too
but again its not a vocal group record to me. Do you say it is?
Absolutely. I listed it in your 1963 thread.
Same sort of case as the Como.Main artist record just with a group in
the background like countless other records
Post by Bruce
Do you not consider "The Deacon Moves In" to be a vocal group record?
Yeah it bothers me a little but like the Barbara Lewis the group is not
named or credited. Yet if I had to make a Dominoes discography it should
at least be mentioned (as should the Barbara record in a Dells
discography).
Post by Bruce
What about when the record is by 2 vocal groups together such as "I'm
Gonna Make You Love Me" by the Supremes and Temptations?
No problem with that and they're equally billed anyway
Post by Bruce
How about "The Came You" by Dionne Warwick and the Spinners?
I think both get equal billing there as well don't they?
Post by Bruce
How about "I Know, I Know" by Pookie Hudson and the Imperials?
He wasn't as famous but otherwise same situation as the Como record
So what you are saying is that what the recording sounds like has no
bearing on anything. The only thing that seems to matter to you comes
from how business is being done by the record label. However they decide
to list the artist(s) on the label is the sole determining factor in
whether something is a vocal group record or not.
How the record is presented is important but not the determining
factor---like many Elvis singles are credited to "Elvis with The
Jordanaires".
But they aren't vocal group records to me.

They are Elvis records with vocal group accompaniment
Post by Bruce
To me there is a difference between a "vocal group record" and a record
that is "by a vocal group."
Anything with a vocal group singing for a major portion of any record
is a vocal group record in my book. Your definition of a "vocal group
record" seems to be the same thing as a record that is "by a vocal
group." I see them as 2 different things that are not mutually
exclusive. Like all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.
We just have differing interpretations
Post by Bruce
In this case, all records by a vocal group are also vocal group
records,but to me there are lots of vocal group records that are not
"by" vocal groups.
Here we part company for reasons already outlined several times
Post by Bruce
To me the determining factor is what I hear on the record. To you the
determining factor is based instead on business factors.
What is says on the label is certainly important but tons of records are
merely main artists with a group (sometimes named sometimes not) backing
them. These very usually AREN'T classable as vocal group records to me
Post by Bruce
So if I was to play you a recording you never heard before that featured
group harmony you would not be able to classify it as a "vocal group
record" until you knew who was singing and what it says on the record
label. Whereas I would only have to hear the recording to make that
determination.
In the case of something I never heard before and/or knew nothing about
otherwise I'd also make the same kind of determination (subject to
change if and when I have fuller info)
Post by Bruce
It strikes me as very silly to not base its classification solely on
what the recording sounds like.
It's okay until lack of full info leads to the pronouncing something
like Gene Pitney's "(I'm Gonna) Love My Life Away" as a vocal group
record
Bruce
2024-10-29 23:33:46 UTC
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Post by Roger
It's okay until lack of full info leads to the pronouncing something
like Gene Pitney's "(I'm Gonna) Love My Life Away" as a vocal group
record.
But for you it depends what that full info says. If that record had been
released with the artist being "The Pitneys," you would then say that it
was a vocal group record, right?

I guess you do not consider an act with only 2 people to be a "vocal
group," although some do.

For instance, if you considered the Righteous Brothers to be a vocal
group, would you consider "Unchained Melody" to be a "vocal group
record," even though Medley's voice is not heard on the record at all?

Does what's on the label supersede what you are hearing....to the point
where if the artist is a group name that it would automatically be a
"vocal group record" even though the only voice heard on the recording
is Bobby Hatfield?

Is "Wishing Well" by Jerry Dorn (with the Hurricanes) a "vocal Group
record?

And why is "Try Try Baby" a vocal group record when the label just says
that it's by Clyde McPhatter?

Loading Image...
Roger
2024-10-30 06:53:50 UTC
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Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
It's okay until lack of full info leads to the pronouncing something
like Gene Pitney's "(I'm Gonna) Love My Life Away" as a vocal group
record.
But for you it depends what that full info says. If that record had
been released with the artist being "The Pitneys," you would then say
that it was a vocal group record, right?
Wrong! If the history behind "The Pitneys" record stayed the same of
course its not a vocal group record. It's still one man multi-tracked
Post by Bruce
I guess you do not consider an act with only 2 people to be a "vocal
group," although some do.
Nope the Everly Brothers and their ilk are "duets" (which I may well do
year-by-year next :-)
Post by Bruce
For instance, if you considered the Righteous Brothers to be a vocal
group, would you consider "Unchained Melody" to be a "vocal group
record," even though Medley's voice is not heard on the record at all?
The question is meaningless since they are a duet (at least on their
other records) not a vocal group.
Post by Bruce
Does what's on the label supersede what you are hearing....to the >point
where if the artist is a group name that it would automatically >be a
"vocal group record" even though the only voice heard on the >recording
is Bobby Hatfield?
In the case of "Unchained Melody" it is in reality simply a Bobby
Hatfield solo performance despite its artist description
Post by Bruce
Is "Wishing Well" by Jerry Dorn (with the Hurricanes) a "vocal Group
record?
Nope its a Jerry Dorn record with vocal backing. One of Sedaka's
earliest songs too,no?
Post by Bruce
And why is "Try Try Baby" a vocal group record when the label just says
that it's by Clyde McPhatter?
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZCe_KxVQNhc/sddefault.jpg
Because its a proveable 1954 recording as done under contract by The
Drifters vocal group and listed in every decent article written about
their history and certainly included in every discography of the group
Bruce
2024-10-30 07:53:08 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
For instance, if you considered the Righteous Brothers to be a vocal
group, would you consider "Unchained Melody" to be a "vocal group
record," even though Medley's voice is not heard on the record at all?
The question is meaningless since they are a duet (at least on their
other records) not a vocal group.
So is "Unchained Melody" by a duet even though Medley is not singing at
all on the record? Does what it says on the label (Righteous Brothers)
totally override what is heard on the recording?
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
And why is "Try Try Baby" a vocal group record when the label just says
that it's by Clyde McPhatter?
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZCe_KxVQNhc/sddefault.jpg
Because its a proveable 1954 recording as done under contract by The
Drifters vocal group and listed in every decent article written about
their history and certainly included in every discography of the group.
So what you are saying is that if the lead singer is also a member of
the backup group, then it's a vocal group record, but if he's not a
member of the group, then it's not a vocal group record.

So the Vic Donna record with the Parakeets is NOT a vocal group record
because Vic was not a member of the Parakeets, right?

But "Going Home" by Jimmy Ricks is a vocal group record because Ricks
was a member of the Ravens? Because the 45 does not mention the Ravens
anywhere.

Loading Image...
Bruce
2024-10-30 08:00:34 UTC
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Roger, I assume that this is not a vocal group record?



Or this one either:



Or this one:


Roger
2024-10-30 08:36:51 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Bruce
Roger, I assume that this is not a vocal group record?
http://youtu.be/w4qj95CyQo8
http://youtu.be/2ZZKmIZGuEI
http://youtu.be/KV9XmNQ66VM
I would'nt automatically call them vocal group records per se but they
are three fine examples of artists with really good vocal group backings

I don't see the huge problem here?????
bbug
2024-10-30 10:34:58 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Bruce
Anything with a vocal group singing for a major portion of any record
is a vocal group record in my book. Your definition of a "vocal group
record" seems to be the same thing as a record that is "by a vocal
group." I see them as 2 different things that are not mutually
exclusive. Like all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.
Another concept that is part of the determination is that of perception.
Roger and I perceive many records to not be vocal group records because
they are perceived by the vast majority of listeners to be by solo
artists. Elvis is the perfect example. He has such a huge presence that
his records are perceived as being Elvis records, not vocal group
records.

Any list of vocal group records that includes Elvis records would be
enough for me to just ignore the list, giving it no basis in reality.
Roger
2024-10-30 11:15:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bbug
Post by Bruce
Anything with a vocal group singing for a major portion of any record
is a vocal group record in my book. Your definition of a "vocal group
record" seems to be the same thing as a record that is "by a vocal
group." I see them as 2 different things that are not mutually
exclusive. Like all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.
Another concept that is part of the determination is that of perception.
Roger and I perceive many records to not be vocal group records because
they are perceived by the vast majority of listeners to be by solo
artists. Elvis is the perfect example. He has such a huge presence that
his records are perceived as being Elvis records, not vocal group
records.
Any list of vocal group records that includes Elvis records would be
enough for me to just ignore the list, giving it no basis in reality.
Well said and I could not agree more with the categorization of Elvis
records. As you rightly say the vast majority of people hear those Elvis
recordings as very much 'solo artist backed by a vocal group affairs' as
do you and I.

In fact until a day or so ago I don't remember ever encountering anyone
who argued the opposite---that is that they were vocal group records
Bruce
2024-10-30 16:28:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by bbug
Post by Bruce
Anything with a vocal group singing for a major portion of any record
is a vocal group record in my book. Your definition of a "vocal group
record" seems to be the same thing as a record that is "by a vocal
group." I see them as 2 different things that are not mutually
exclusive. Like all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.
Another concept that is part of the determination is that of perception.
Roger and I perceive many records to not be vocal group records because
they are perceived by the vast majority of listeners to be by solo
artists. Elvis is the perfect example. He has such a huge presence that
his records are perceived as being Elvis records, not vocal group
records.
Any list of vocal group records that includes Elvis records would be
enough for me to just ignore the list, giving it no basis in reality.
Well said and I could not agree more with the categorization of Elvis
records. As you rightly say the vast majority of people hear those Elvis
recordings as very much 'solo artist backed by a vocal group affairs' as
do you and I.
The "vast majority of people" think that any rock and roll or R&B record
from the 50s is "doo wop" and also think that any soul record from the
60s is "Motown."

Do you really want to make the opinions of the general public part of
this debate?
Mark D.
2024-10-30 17:55:56 UTC
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Post by Bruce
Do you really want to make the opinions of the general public part of
this debate?
Speaking for the general public, I'd say we think this debate should stop.

--md

remove "xx" for email
Bruce
2024-10-30 18:06:59 UTC
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Post by Mark D.
Post by Bruce
Do you really want to make the opinions of the general public part of
this debate?
Speaking for the general public, I'd say we think this debate should stop.
Phuck off. If you don't like the debate, don't read the thread. It's not
like you have been contributing anything around here lately.
Roger
2024-10-30 11:15:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bbug
Post by Bruce
Anything with a vocal group singing for a major portion of any record
is a vocal group record in my book. Your definition of a "vocal group
record" seems to be the same thing as a record that is "by a vocal
group." I see them as 2 different things that are not mutually
exclusive. Like all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.
Another concept that is part of the determination is that of perception.
Roger and I perceive many records to not be vocal group records because
they are perceived by the vast majority of listeners to be by solo
artists. Elvis is the perfect example. He has such a huge presence that
his records are perceived as being Elvis records, not vocal group
records.
Any list of vocal group records that includes Elvis records would be
enough for me to just ignore the list, giving it no basis in reality.
Well said and I could not agree more with the categorization of Elvis
records. As you rightly say the vast majority of people hear those Elvis
recordings as very much 'solo artist backed by a vocal group affairs' as
do you and I.

In fact until a day or so ago I don't remember ever encountering anyone
who argued the opposite---that is that they were vocal group records
Roger
2024-10-30 15:32:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by bbug
Post by Bruce
Anything with a vocal group singing for a major portion of any record
is a vocal group record in my book. Your definition of a "vocal group
record" seems to be the same thing as a record that is "by a vocal
group." I see them as 2 different things that are not mutually
exclusive. Like all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.
Another concept that is part of the determination is that of perception.
Roger and I perceive many records to not be vocal group records because
they are perceived by the vast majority of listeners to be by solo
artists. Elvis is the perfect example. He has such a huge presence that
his records are perceived as being Elvis records, not vocal group
records.
Any list of vocal group records that includes Elvis records would be
enough for me to just ignore the list, giving it no basis in reality.
Well said and I could not agree more with the categorization of Elvis
records. As you rightly say the vast majority of people hear those Elvis
recordings as very much 'solo artist backed by a vocal group affairs' as
do you and I.
In fact until a day or so ago I don't remember ever encountering anyone
who argued the opposite---that is that they were vocal group records
I did a little checking and in the two old Vocal Group battles (and
remember there were a LOT more folk on this newsgroup back then) there
were NO Elvis records included or even requested by anyone. Not a single
person complained or even mentioned anything at all about them.

In fact the ONLY "single artist" record included in either battle was
"Mind Over Matter" by Nolan strong---and that was because--despite how
its credited on the label--the recording is by Nolan Strong & The
Diablos as confirmed to us by Devora Brown (and as mentioned in several
online sources)

I did a further check and can find absolutely NO mention of anyone here
in the past (until this week) describing any Elvis records as "vocal
group records". Nobody ever wrote about them in that way. Nobody
suggested them for the vocal groups battles and certainly nobody
complained at their omission
Bruce
2024-10-30 16:20:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by bbug
Post by Bruce
Anything with a vocal group singing for a major portion of any record
is a vocal group record in my book. Your definition of a "vocal group
record" seems to be the same thing as a record that is "by a vocal
group." I see them as 2 different things that are not mutually
exclusive. Like all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.
Another concept that is part of the determination is that of perception.
Roger and I perceive many records to not be vocal group records because
they are perceived by the vast majority of listeners to be by solo
artists. Elvis is the perfect example. He has such a huge presence that
his records are perceived as being Elvis records, not vocal group
records.
Any list of vocal group records that includes Elvis records would be
enough for me to just ignore the list, giving it no basis in reality.
Well said and I could not agree more with the categorization of Elvis
records. As you rightly say the vast majority of people hear those Elvis
recordings as very much 'solo artist backed by a vocal group affairs' as
do you and I.
In fact until a day or so ago I don't remember ever encountering anyone
who argued the opposite---that is that they were vocal group records
When George Lavatelli and I did our first survey which asked every
participant to rank their 15 favorite vocal groups, former group member
Steve Propes listed Jesse Belvin as his number one vocal group.

When we did the 1957 survey asking for each participant's top 20 vocal
group records of the year, Bill Olb's number one vote went to "Don't" by
Elvis and the Jordanaires.

So there is precedent for what I am arguing. Being in the UK and not
here you have not much experience sitting around with several R&B Vocal
group fans and talking about records that they love.

In the case of the Bobby Relf and Chuck Higgins records they are
definitely considered to be vocal group records. Even on Youtube they
are listed as "Bobby Relf and Group" and "Chuck Higgins And Group." It
doesn't matter to them whether they know who the group is or whether the
lead singer is in the group or not. They are still vocal group records.

http://youtu.be/2ZZKmIZGuEI

http://youtu.be/KV9XmNQ66VM


And so are the Arthur Lee Maye records that only show his name on the
label, and the same with the Young Jessie records like "Lonesome Desert.
"


RWC
2024-10-30 17:55:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by bbug
Post by Bruce
Anything with a vocal group singing for a major portion of any record
is a vocal group record in my book. Your definition of a "vocal group
record" seems to be the same thing as a record that is "by a vocal
group." I see them as 2 different things that are not mutually
exclusive. Like all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.
Another concept that is part of the determination is that of perception.
Roger and I perceive many records to not be vocal group records because
they are perceived by the vast majority of listeners to be by solo
artists. Elvis is the perfect example. He has such a huge presence that
his records are perceived as being Elvis records, not vocal group
records.
Any list of vocal group records that includes Elvis records would be
enough for me to just ignore the list, giving it no basis in reality.
(let's give the pot one more stir :-)

Perception is *personal* and can equally serve both sides of the
Roger-Bruce debate on what is a vocal group record.

In this debate, it could be argued that Roger and Bill's perceptions are
closed-minded, particularly regarding Elvis, where they are influenced
by simplistic mob thinking (e.g., "Elvis was never just part of a vocal
group").

Bruce, on the other hand, represents those who are more open-minded,
whose thinking isn't primarily shaped by the history of record label
credits or contracts. Imagine if no other Elvis records existed and
"Don't Be Cruel" was released and credited to "The Jordanaires,
featuring Elvis Presley (as the group's lead singer)."

Bruce is influenced heavily, if not solely, by the *sound* of a specific
recording, while Roger prioritizes other criteria.

(Geoff believes that for a record to be considered as having a
Vocal Group sound, there must be 3 or more voices. This means that
2-voice Duets can be immediately recognized and categorized as such.)
Roger
2024-10-31 06:50:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RWC
Post by bbug
Post by Bruce
Anything with a vocal group singing for a major portion of any record
is a vocal group record in my book. Your definition of a "vocal group
record" seems to be the same thing as a record that is "by a vocal
group." I see them as 2 different things that are not mutually
exclusive. Like all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.
Another concept that is part of the determination is that of perception.
Roger and I perceive many records to not be vocal group records because
they are perceived by the vast majority of listeners to be by solo
artists. Elvis is the perfect example. He has such a huge presence that
his records are perceived as being Elvis records, not vocal group
records.
Any list of vocal group records that includes Elvis records would be
enough for me to just ignore the list, giving it no basis in reality.
(let's give the pot one more stir :-)
Perception is *personal* and can equally serve both sides of the
Roger-Bruce debate on what is a vocal group record.
In this debate, it could be argued that Roger and Bill's perceptions
are closed-minded, particularly regarding Elvis, where they are
influenced by simplistic mob thinking (e.g., "Elvis was never just
part of a vocal group").
Bruce, on the other hand, represents those who are more open-minded,
whose thinking isn't primarily shaped by the history of record label
credits or contracts. Imagine if no other Elvis records existed and
"Don't Be Cruel" was released and credited to "The Jordanaires,
featuring Elvis Presley (as the group's lead singer)."
Bruce is influenced heavily, if not solely, by the *sound* of a
specific recording, while Roger prioritizes other criteria.
(Geoff believes that for a record to be considered as having a
Vocal Group sound, there must be 3 or more voices. This means that
2-voice Duets can be immediately recognized and categorized as such.)
If you really have any belief at all in all this horseshit why didn't
you or anyone else baulk at the complete lack of any Elvis records for
instance in both of the old Vocal Groups Battles?. You were posting on
here back then. Why no comments at the time?
Bruce
2024-10-31 08:03:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
If you really have any belief at all in all this horseshit why didn't
you or anyone else baulk at the complete lack of any Elvis records for
instance in both of the old Vocal Groups Battles?. You were posting on
here back then. Why no comments at the time?
It was your contest so it went by your rules. AND it would be
ridiculously more work if you went by my rules with the battles. That's
why when George and I did those vocal group surveys I was okay with it
when he only wanted to include solo acts with groups if the solo act was
in the group, like Clyde McPhatter and the Drifters were included, but
Chuck Willis and the Sandmen were not included.
RWC
2024-11-01 03:29:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
If you really have any belief at all in all this horseshit why didn't
you or anyone else baulk at the complete lack of any Elvis records for
instance in both of the old Vocal Groups Battles?. You were posting on
here back then. Why no comments at the time?
Roger, ironically *you* are clutching at straws, with *your* misleading
horseshit - shame on you!

Unlike in this current thread, the old Vocal Group Battles did *not bring
to mind* the thought of questioning the definition of a Vocal Group
record - *realistically* we all just went along, innocent and
unquestioning, for a ride on the great Battle wave.
Roger
2024-11-01 06:55:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RWC
Post by Roger
If you really have any belief at all in all this horseshit why didn't
you or anyone else baulk at the complete lack of any Elvis records for
instance in both of the old Vocal Groups Battles?. You were posting on
here back then. Why no comments at the time?
Roger, ironically *you* are clutching at straws, with *your* misleading
horseshit - shame on you!
What is "misleading" about what I said? Nobody but nobody queried the
criteria for the old vocal group battles. That is fact
Post by RWC
Unlike in this current thread, the old Vocal Group Battles did *not bring
to mind* the thought of questioning the definition of a Vocal Group
record - *realistically* we all just went along, innocent and
unquestioning, for a ride on the great Battle wave.
Because everybody at that time pretty well agreed what a vocal group
record was and nobody but nobody mentioned anything along the lines of
the totally revisionist vocal group thinking currently being mentioned
here

Roger
2024-10-30 08:30:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
For instance, if you considered the Righteous Brothers to be a vocal
group, would you consider "Unchained Melody" to be a "vocal group
record," even though Medley's voice is not heard on the record at all?
The question is meaningless since they are a duet (at least on their
other records) not a vocal group.
So is "Unchained Melody" by a duet even though Medley is not singing
at all on the record? Does what it says on the label (Righteous
Brothers) totally override what is heard on the recording?
That's why I added "at least on their other records" which I would have
thought was self explanatory
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
And why is "Try Try Baby" a vocal group record when the label just s
says that it's by Clyde McPhatter?
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZCe_KxVQNhc/sddefault.jpg
Because its a proveable 1954 recording as done under contract by The
Drifters vocal group and listed in every decent article written about
their history and certainly included in every discography of the group.
So what you are saying is that if the lead singer is also a member of
the backup group, then it's a vocal group record, but if he's not a
member of the group, then it's not a vocal group record.
What I'm saying is exactly what's quoted above. "Because its a proveable
1954 recording....etc ...etc...etc

I think I've made my point fairly clear and since I don't propose to
spend the rest of my life answering "is this a vocal group record or
not" questions I've not much else to add
Bruce
2024-10-30 16:06:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
So what you are saying is that if the lead singer is also a member of
the backup group, then it's a vocal group record, but if he's not a
member of the group, then it's not a vocal group record.
What I'm saying is exactly what's quoted above. "Because its a proveable
1954 recording....etc ...etc...etc
Suppose it was a provable 1954 recording that was released a few years
later as by Clyde McPhatter, but the other singers were the Cues rather
than the Drifters. Then you would say that it's not a vocal group
record, right?

The provable part doesn't mean anything unless the lead singer was a
member of the group, correct?

"Ain't That Loving You Baby" by Elvis was a provable 1956 or 1957
recording that was released in 1964, but because Elvis was not a member
of the Jordanaires, you do not seem it to be a vocal group record,
right?
Roger
2024-10-30 16:27:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bruce
Post by Roger
Post by Bruce
So what you are saying is that if the lead singer is also a member of
the backup group, then it's a vocal group record, but if he's not a
member of the group, then it's not a vocal group record.
What I'm saying is exactly what's quoted above. "Because its a proveable
1954 recording....etc ...etc...etc
Suppose it was a provable 1954 recording that was released a few years
later as by Clyde McPhatter, but the other singers were the Cues rather
than the Drifters. Then you would say that it's not a vocal group
record, right?
The provable part doesn't mean anything unless the lead singer was a
member of the group, correct?
"Ain't That Loving You Baby" by Elvis was a provable 1956 or 1957
recording that was released in 1964, but because Elvis was not a member
of the Jordanaires, you do not seem it to be a vocal group record,
right?
Why do the words "clutching" and "straws" fill my mind?
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